S3 E37: Dacy Gillespie on Letting Go of Shoulds and Choosing Our Own Rules
In this episode I had a great conversation with Dacy Gillespie, a personal stylist who helps women let go of the external messages they’ve been given about what they should wear and discover what they feel best in, so they can unapologetically take up space in the world. She also shares about her journey of letting go of her identity as a musician and how this career pivot now gives her a more emotionally sustainable lifestyle.
Tune in to hear us talk about all the things we want to unlearn from music school and musician hustle culture, the challenges of being a highly sensitive person and parent, why she didn’t consider herself “creative” as a musician, and how important and empowering it is to make your own rules, and show up in the world as truly yourself.
TOPICS DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE:
How Dacy helps women uncover and let go of external messages around clothes, and why it’s not just about the clothes
What it felt like to let go of her identity as an orchestral bass player, and how she chose to pivot her career
The challenges of being a musician, teacher, and parent as a highly sensitive person, especially before learning that that was a thing
Why Dacy didn’t feel like “a creative person”, even as a musician, and the role of creativity in her life now
How music school and “musician grind culture” didn’t allow her to feel like a whole person, and the harm that comes from that
Dacy’s most impactful self care practices around rest and productivity
Choosing our own rules, boundaries, and how we set up our lives
Showing up as yourself in spite of others’ expectations
RESOURCES MENTIONED
The Highly Sensitive Parent and The Highly Sensitive Person by Elaine Aron
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TRANSCRIPT
Rebecca Hass
Hello, everyone. Welcome to Episode 37 of Being A Whole Person. I'm really excited to share with you today's interview with Dacy Gillespie. But first, I have a couple announcements for you. Number one is that my coaching rates are going to be going up on June 7. I had announced June 1 before, but I'm moving at the end of this month, so, logistically, it was easier to give it an extra week. So if you've been thinking of working with me, now's a great time before the rates go up. And as long as you talk to me before then about starting a package, you can still be on the old rates.
Rebecca Hass
So if you have a creative goal that you just been working towards, and can't seem to make that much progress, or if you're feeling overwhelmed by all the aspects of your life, and just can't carve out the time or get the energy for it, I'd love to help you out with that. If you want to learn more, you can always book a free discovery call with me. And we'll talk through what's going on, you'll leave with at least one strategy that you can start using to solve the issue on your own. And we can go from there to see what's a good fit. So the link is in the show notes for that.
Rebecca Hass
Second announcement, which you've come to expect at this point, please rate and review the show. It helps so much in getting more, I was going to say, more eyes on the show. More ears - this is an audio podcast. It just really helps get it out there, the more ratings and reviews that there are, and helps me reach more people and spread this message that we don't have to burn ourselves out. We don't have to be overwhelmed. That's the world that I want. So let's do it. It's a really great free way to support the show. And if you do it, I'll be so grateful. Thank you in advance.
Rebecca Hass
So about today's show. Dacy Gillespie is the personal stylist behind mindful closet. And in her business, she intuitively guides her clients to discover what they feel best in, and letting go of those external messages and rules about all those "shoulds" we've been given. And as they build a new wardrobe together, it's not just about the clothes, it's about making mindset shifts and showing up as who you are in the world, which I think is so great. Dacy really does this in an empathetic, understanding, and supportive way.
Rebecca Hass
We had such a great time talking and sharing with each other because we both have similar stories. We both come from classical music backgrounds, and are now both running different online businesses shifting and pivoting from what we had done originally. Dacy's was more of a shift. She is a retired orchestral bass player and has also taught in elementary school classrooms, all things that didn't really suit her highly sensitive, introverted personality.
Rebecca Hass
We talked a lot about the things that we want to unlearn from this music school and musician hustle culture background, we talked about the challenges of being a highly sensitive person and parent, why Dacy didn't consider herself creative, even though she was a musician, which we think of as a highly creative career, and how important and empowering it is to be able to show up in the world as truly yourself. So, as always, I love this conversation, and I hope that you will, too. Today, I'm really excited to welcome Dacy Gillespie to the show. Hi, Dacy.
Dacy Gillespie
Hi, Rebecca. How are you?
Rebecca Hass
Good. How are you doing? I'm so excited to have you here. Let's just start out by having you tell everyone who you are, what you do, what you're all about.
Dacy Gillespie
I know it's such like the first basic question, and it's also so hard.
Rebecca Hass
It's a big question. Yes, sometimes people are like, "Whoa, that was a really long answer." And I'm like, the long answer is great.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, well, there's so much tied up there with identity, and yeah, who you are. Anyway, so I'll do my best and I might get long. But, I am a person, I'm a human, and I currently run a business called mindful closet, which is a personal styling service, but I like to think of it as a little different than what might come to mind, if you think of a personal stylist or personal shopper. I'm really about helping women uncover the external messages they've been given about what they should put on their bodies, what they should look like, what they should wear. Uncovering those, acknowledging them, letting them go, and then deciding what it is that they really want to wear, and what they feel best in.
Dacy Gillespie
And so that's kind of a long process sometimes, because there's a lot of stuff around our clothes. And so I've been doing that since 2013. Prior to that, I had been kind of searching, I think my whole life for what I should be doing with myself. And a lot of that time was spent as a performing classical musician. So I went to school for music and got a master's in music performance. I'm a former bass player, I like to say that I'm, quote, retired now. So I don't play anymore. But that was, again, speaking of identity, that was my identity for a really long time, it was just, if you ask me who I am, I'm a musician. That's something that's been interesting to let go of. The other big identity that I have, which kind of consumes my energy these days is that I'm a mother of two little kids, two little boys. So that is kind of all consuming, more than I would prefer most of the time. But yeah, that's that's kind of that's who I am. A little bit.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. And, you know, well, we'll get into it more as we talk, I'm sure. Yeah, that's so interesting that you consider yourself retired from music? Does music play a role in your life still? Or, what role does it play?
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, I know, I kind of almost had some anxiety, thinking about this conversation that we might have, because of your, you know, part of your identity as a musician, and just kind of having this conversation, because I anticipated that this question might come up, and the thing is that music does not play a big part in my life anymore. It's interesting, and most people feel very sad for me when I say that, but it doesn't feel sad to me. Yeah. So I don't know. It's kind of curious.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. Well, it doesn't sound sad when you say it. It sounds like it sounds really clear that you found what you want to be doing, and that you've made peace with closing a chapter. And congratulations, I think that's great.
Dacy Gillespie
Thanks, and what I love about like, your work, too, is just this, that the duality can exist. And I think maybe that's why I had some anxiety around saying that I don't play anymore. Because for me, you know, those two kind of lines of identity don't both play a part in my life anymore. But I also think it's so important and so valuable to acknowledge that for some people they do, if that makes sense.
Rebecca Hass
Yes. Yeah, right, because you don't know who's how they're coming to it. I remember having a conversation with someone, I don't know, I was probably like, 25, and they were like, 35. It was someone who had gone to school for composition, for music composition, and he was like, "Yeah, I don't do that anymore." I was like, "Oh, no." I had that reaction. He's like, "Actually, I'm completely fine with it, and I'm much happier now. And it's great." And I remember being a little bit stunned, like, what, like, you can just like, quit that and you feel okay about it?
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, well, and see, and in that situation, I'd be curious to talk to that person. And this is why I love what I do, because I'm always curious about how people got to where they are. And you know, that person you had that conversation with, it'd be interesting to know, kind of why they started in that field in the beginning and kind of what those motivations are.
Dacy Gillespie
For me, you know, when I look back now, I did love music, I did love playing music. I did love that connection that I got with the other musicians playing in the orchestra. But there was so much about why I went into music that wasn't necessarily authentic to what I really wanted to be doing. So there was a lot of it around, I got a lot of validation for being, quote, talented, or, you know, I got a lot of attention for that. I also, you know, kind of was like, "Well, this is something I'm good at, clearly, I should just keep doing it, regardless of what I feel or what I think." And then, you know, and I've heard you talk about this, too. It's like, I'm so glad that this narrative is changing a little bit, but especially when I made the decision to go to music school, we're talking in like the early 90s. There was no like, you can do more than one thing. It was like, especially in the field of classical music and orchestral classical music, you have to focus on that one thing to the exclusion of everything else. And I think that really hurt me a lot.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, I think it hurts a lot of people. When you're in music school, you're being taught by people who have been in the academic bubble forever, and they don't know anything else outside that bubble. Well, maybe some of them do. But the majority are just familiar with the bubble. So they can't really give you the perspective of having done the other stuff.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, yeah, I look back, and I think, I remember there being a deciding point where I kind of had to decide, do I want to go into something like English or journalism or writing? Or do I want to go into music? I even actually, my, the first music school I attended was the Oberlin Conservatory, and I even originally chose that school because they had a double major program. So I could have done like a five year or get two, you know, bachelor degrees, one in English and one in music. And I mean, immediately when I got there, I quickly realized like that was not going to be possible, to split myself that way, with what the music school was asking me to do. Yeah.
Dacy Gillespie
And so again, I kind of look back, and I just see that things could have gone different ways, and so, now that I've kind of, that chapter of my life has somewhat come to an end and culminated, yeah, I don't, I don't feel bad about it. I don't miss it. You know, I am really happy with what I do. I think, you know, and I have to be completely honest, probably part of it is that I still have a foot in that world, because my husband is still performing musician, and so sure, it's kind of still a part of our lives, but it's not part of my personal, you know, practice in any way.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. I think I've heard you talk about on an interview before that, you're a highly sensitive person. And that being in, you know, a hundred-person, however, many people are in the orchestra, that was a sensory overwhelming experience for you. Can you talk a little bit more about that aspect of it?
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah. I mean, I really, I don't think I kind of, was aware of this concept of, of being highly sensitive until, you know, probably I was in my 30s. At that point, I was pretty on the way out of performing. When I did find out about it, it made so much sense to me, because, you know, there is so much assault of sound. Sometimes it's beautiful, and sometimes it's not. And the other interesting thing about performing in an orchestra and being in rehearsals and things is, you don't have control over your environment at all. You can't you kind of can't say, "Well, well, I'm being very overstimulated right now, I'm going to take a break," you know, it just doesn't work that way. Everyone is on the same, you know, the conductor is, the one in charge of making choices about what you can and can't do. And so yeah, it was something that really all of a sudden clicked for me and made a lot of sense. And I also, you know, after I kind of had performed for a while, I also did quite a bit of teaching at the elementary school level. And that was another like sensory overload, you know,
Rebecca Hass
I feel you.
Dacy Gillespie
It's really hard. And what I noticed, you know, is that and when I looked back, I noticed that, after I was kind of in those situations for a couple of hours, I would come out of them, and I would just be so grouchy, and so cranky, you know, and just kind of feeling like there was something wrong with me that I was just kind of always in a bad mood, and just not really connecting those those things. So that was very interesting.
Rebecca Hass
I relate to that. I've never taught classroom music because that never appealed to me. It was more that I wanted to teach private lessons, but I've taught group piano classes, and I did it because I was like, well, I should have this other experience, and, you know, I was offered this position, and someone thinks I would be good at it. So I'll try it. And it was not for me at all, even though it was like six kids in a piano lab, like, it's just, it's a lot.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, it's very overwhelming. And the the just kind of the general buzz of energy in a school and the buzz of energy, I think, in a rehearsal hall, those are all things too, that I didn't realize how much I took in. You know, and so, not realizing that I just really needed much more than some other people of the kind of recovery from those things like I really, like people joke about it, but like I really do need to go sit in a dark room for a while by myself after an experience like that.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, that shell shocked feeling. I completely understand. I've noticed this the last couple years living with a housemate who's a musician. And people have this idea that like musicians just like want to hang out and jam all the time. And, you know, making music constantly is the dream. That's not how it works for me either, like, I have a limit to the amount of time I can spend with other people as an introvert, and I really value having sonic control over my environment. So like, there's challenges with that for sure. And on your end with having kids too, I'm sure that that's a factor.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, I'm literally reading a book right now called The Highly Sensitive Parent, so, I'm trying to get some solutions and some fixes for that. But yeah.
Rebecca Hass
Is that the same author as The Highly Sensitive Person? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because I've read the person one, and I'm not a parent, but yeah, I hope that has some good tips, and that you can put that into practice.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, I mean, to be perfectly honest, the only solution is childcare, because, you know, you don't want to, you know, I care very deeply about my kids' emotional well being. I want them to be able to come to me when they need something, and I want them to be able to express themselves. So, you know, but it's a hard balance, the only real solution that I found so far, and my oldest just turned seven. So it's been a while, but you just have to have space away and time away, and go into the other room and put the other parent on duty, or get a sitter or any of those things. I regularly started a couple years ago, started doing hotel weekends where I'll just go. Yeah. And I felt so guilty about it for such a long time. And I'm slowly slowly working through that. But, yeah.
Rebecca Hass
That's amazing. I'm so glad you can do that, because, yeah, you need to have the boundaries. Even as a person without kids. I'm like, I need the boundaries, I need the alone time, and that makes us feel okay. So, like, we can't show up for others without that.
Dacy Gillespie
It was always the same for me even before kids, it was that way with my husband. You know, people have different love languages, and they have different types of personalities, and he would love to just hang out all the time. I love him dearly, but like, I still need my alone time, even though he's my person.
Rebecca Hass
Exactly.
Dacy Gillespie
And yeah, same whenever I lived with roommates or anything like that, it was always like, to be honest, when I think back, I realized, like I was probably, came across as just kind of grouchy, you know, but it was I didn't know that I needed that separation at that time. And so I would kind of like, get a little bit moody. But what that really was was that, it was time for me to have some alone time, you know, so now I'm more aware of that.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, going back to your music life, but also forward to your current stylist life - How does your role or your relationship with creativity, or, how is that changed? Like, as an orchestral musician, I can imagine that there's creative expression in how you play the music, but, maybe that isn't as much as you would want it to be. And then like how, I'm sure you have a huge amount of creativity in your business, both in the business part and how you work with people now.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, well, this is also interesting, too, because, you know, I knew, talking to you, your whole business is is creative coaching. And I, I am starting to shift this idea of myself as not a creative person. I've always thought of myself as not a creative person.
Rebecca Hass
Interesting.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, right? And when people hear that I was a musician, they're like, "Oh, but you must be creative, because you are a musician." And I want to tell them, no, no, if you're an orchestral musician, and I was a bass player, and so you know, like you really, your job is, for the most part, to be very exact, and perfectionistic about what's on the page, and about what the conductor is asking you to do. You actually have very, very little creative control. That was always the path that when I was in music, I wanted to go down, I did just want to play in orchestral situations. So you know, sometimes, you know, as I know you do, musicians will have side projects, or they'll have things that they do on their own or, you know, things that they work on just for their own fulfillment. I never really did a ton of that.
Dacy Gillespie
So, yeah, in that sense, I didn't have a lot of room for exercising creativity. And also, I just, yeah, I didn't think of myself as creative. I'm definitely not an improviser. I'm definitely not you know, I didn't learn it. It's taken me a while to acknowledge that, that doesn't mean I was a bad musician. It was just not something I've learned.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah.
Dacy Gillespie
We're taught to improvise. I was taught, you know, just from the beginning, like, you know, you play what's on the page.
Rebecca Hass
Read your notes. Yep. Do it right.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah. It's very interesting to think about, and now, when I work with clients, I think, and I'm kind of curious to hear what you think about this, too, because I feel like there are probably lots of aspects of the work I do that are creative, but I still haven't quite pinpointed them. I'm still not exactly sure. One thing I know that I do that is creative, is I do a lot more writing now, and that's a lot of fun, because again, as I mentioned earlier, that was something that I was always interested in, and kind of chose the music path instead.
Dacy Gillespie
So I do a lot of writing for my emails and for you know, social media and my blog and things like that, and that's really fun. The way that I kind of see my creativity manifesting when I work with my clients is that I'm a really great interpreter of what other people are seeing and feeling and help them name that. So it's kind of interesting because I don't necessarily, you know, I'm not a clothing designer, you know, I don't come up with ideas out of my head, you know, from from scratch, but what I'm really good at doing is taking all the input and taking all the information that people are expressing to me, and forming it into something concrete that they can look at, and then understand more easily. So yeah, it's kind of an interesting question.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. And yeah, that is all creativity. And I totally relate to the idea that we think of the making of the thing as, I am creative, or I'm not creative. But I think every human is creative, whether you realize it or not. We use it in so many different ways. Like, this has come up a lot during the pandemic, that people are like, "I just don't have the mental space to be creative in the way that I normally do." At first, I was like, that's because you're being creative, trying to figure out like, what the hell is going on right now? Like, what you're going to do? And what is your career now? And how am I going to do this online and whatever, you know, all those things, that's creativity. It's just not the kind you plan on.
Dacy Gillespie
Like, here's my artwork that I made, or here's my book that I wrote. Yeah, it's so true. That's completely how I have it, kind of outlined in my head is those things are what is considered creative. And you know, but it is interesting what you said about like, having an online business or having like, just being kind of a, quote, entrepreneur, I, you know, I don't super identify with that term. But you know, having a business is you're constantly having to solve problems and figure out things that come up, and that part, not necessarily solving problems, but the part of like, how am I going to do business? How am I going to deliver what I want to deliver to people? How am I going to interact with people? Literally, how are we going to work together? That stuff I always find really fun to put out and put together.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, me too. And how is this going to evolve after the first time that, you know, maybe kind of worked, but you see some room for growing? Yeah. There's so much there. Yeah.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah. And I just think it's really interesting. I mean, again, I just love what you're doing. I know, there's kind of a few other people starting to do this, kind of combining performing background and a musician background with online business and, and coaching. And I just, it's so interesting for me to see, because I did feel like when I stopped playing that there really had to be a switch to a whole new thing. And for me, that was still the right thing to do. But I know there are people out there who are as frustrated as I was, by the whole audition scene, and like, this is the only way to be successful in this field is, you have to follow this track that's been laid out for you. I just think it's really interesting and encouraging that people are kind of finding new ways to create business as a musician.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, me too. I think maybe that's why i subconsciously opted out of the classical world, or like, never could go all in on it, because I just, I knew that it wasn't, I couldn't fit myself into the box. It was never gonna work. I was always gonna have like, an arm sticking out, or like a foot here, or, trying to cram myself in.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, it's funny. It was something that really appealed to me, actually, was that idea of like, here's the steps you take. And because then it was like, I didn't have to figure it out by myself. And, you know, I think I just it just took me longer to work through the whole process of this not being for me. But yeah, in the beginning, that was that was a comforting thing, because it is so scary to not know what you will do with this.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. Well, and did you get any good training on careers or business or anything like that in school? Because I sure did not.
Dacy Gillespie
Oh, God. No, no, no, no. I mean, no, nothing. I mean, it was so I was so busy taking, you know, like 16th century Baroque history. And, I mean, I can, all the aural skills and all the music theory, and all that kind of stuff.
Rebecca Hass
And all the classes that were too few credits, and they were like, three hours, but one credit, and they were like, well, we have to do this or you can't graduate on time.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, I mean, there were just, and I was lucky, so after I was at Oberlin, I did transfer to Rice. And then I did my masters at Rice as well. So I was a little bit lucky there in that, at least it wasn't like Juilliard or somewhere where we only had, you know, you only had the music curriculum. I know at Juilliard, they take courses in other places and you know, whatever, but at least at Rice, like we did have some kind of humanities requirements that we had to take, and I always did really enjoy those, but when I think back, I was just so overloaded with the schedule of the music requirements, and then the, of course, practicing and lessons and that kind of stuff. Like there was just no, and I know you talk a lot about this stuff, there's just no space. It was almost like, once I got on that track, it was impossible to get off. Because I had no time to think about it. I had no time. Yeah, I had no time and space to just be and think, how is this going? You know, it was just like constantly striving for the next thing. So that was hard. That I wish could be a little different for people in that area now.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, me too. Yeah, it's like being on a speeding train. I remember the best time or like, my favorite time of day was when I was walking to class, the 20 minute walk to class, because I wasn't obligated to be doing anything during that time. And looking back on that, I'm like, that is so sad.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think about it now, I just think, I remember actually, when I started doing my grad program, and the requirements just were a little different, so I just had a little more time in my day. And I just remember being like, so exhausted and sleeping for like nine hours a night every night and being like, wow, I guess this is actually what it's like to not be busy and stressed out all the time. You know, it makes me sad. I know that that's probably even gotten a lot worse for kids since then, with, it seems like there's so much pressure and, you know, pressure to achieve. And that makes me really sad, because that's something that I've really realized was really detrimental to my health, and my mental health, just not having that ability to breathe.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. Well, and I think about it, too, from the perspective of age and energy. Like, we could make it work at age 20. But like now at age 38, it would destroy me to try to live like that. Or it has, it already tried to destroy me.
Dacy Gillespie
Good point, because yes, we have the energy to push through when we're that age. But then we get into this habit of thinking that's how we should always be, what we're trained into at that stage of our lives and thinking, "Well, if I can't measure up to that anymore, then I'm like, not being productive. I'm being lazy." And it's really like that was just unattainable. And like you said, we could just do it just because of sheer youth.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. And then you're not just doing something different, you're unlearning something and trying to change it, and that is just so hard when it's baked in. So it feels like it's baked in, like I come from Midwestern farmers and work ethic is the top value. And you know, we're Americans, and there's so many things that are telling us we have to be like this.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, so many things. Yeah. And I get that from my parents as well. My dad was a union organizer. And so really, like workers and people who worked really hard, were kind of, in his opinion, the best humans, you know, they were really like good people. And of course, not that they're not good people. But what made them good, is not that they worked very hard, not how hard they worked. And then my mom just modeled, working her butt off, and also taking care of our whole family, and she was an elementary school teacher. And as I'm sure you know, elementary school, teachers work all day, and then they come home, and they parent, and then they work all night, you know? So I just saw that forever. And then a layer on top of that, the kind of pressures and expectations of being a classical musician and seeing that, or the message you're given is that the only way you can succeed is if you work harder than everyone else. And if you know if someone else is if you're sleeping, that's time, you could be practicing, you know, and just this whole grind, which is funny, because it was something that I was so repulsed by the grind culture and entrepreneurship, because I was, I've been through that before. I'm not doing that again.
Rebecca Hass
Yes. Absolutely.
Dacy Gillespie
Hard to opt out of that. Yeah. Yeah.
Rebecca Hass
So what are some of the steps you've taken? Or some of the actions or mindset shifts that you've taken in trying to shift that for yourself?
Dacy Gillespie
Hmm, that's such a good question. You know, I think so much of it has had to do with starting to listen to myself and actually hear what my body is saying, or what my energy is saying. Again, that's completely what I ignored during those years of performing was, you know, I had all these sensory things telling me this is not good, this does not feel good. And I just ignored them because I was doing what I was, quote, supposed to do. And so at a certain point, I just started listening to like, oh, wow, I feel really anxious when I do that, or I feel really stressed out over a long period of time when I'm working on this kind of work. So that was the very, very beginning. It's just kind of tuning into that. And then I think, from that awareness, then I started to say to myself, "Well, how can I set up my life In a way where I can avoid some of those pressures?" and also allowing that that's not a bad thing. And then that kind of self knowledge and learning and hearing about things like being introverted, and being highly sensitive, those all validated for me that I wasn't just making this stuff up, you know that it's a way of being and it's, it's fine, there's nothing wrong with it. Because it's really, I think, in my mind, I was always like, Well, that makes me less of a good person, you know, if I need that downtime, or if I need a little more recovery time. So it was Yeah, it was like kind of the awareness, the listening, making shifts, in kind of just my daily life. Some of those shifts would be like, yeah, now I, you know, I've realized, like, I love people, I'm an introvert, but I still love people, and but I really like to relate to people one on one, you know, I like to have deep conversations, I'm not great with like, a dinner party. And you know, everyone having small talk, like, if I can sit next to one person and have a deep conversation with them, that makes me feel a lot more fulfilled, than kind of a lot of surface loud stuff going on. So yeah, kind of lots of things like that. And luckily, I was kind of realizing all those things around the time that I was like, I'm really ready to shift out of music, and what can I do that will be sustainable for me, you know, in those in the sense of all those things, you know, what would be sustainable for me emotionally and with my health, and you know, all those kinds of things. And it all kind of has lined up for me in the work that I'm doing now.
Rebecca Hass
Thank you for sharing all that. That's so tender, that you don't feel like a good enough person when you're advocating for your own needs. And I completely relate to that, and I think a lot of other people do, too.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, 100%. And that was, that's been so hard. And I think that's a lot of what I, you know, someone told me recently, I was having a talk with a friend who's in a similar field, just a colleague, and she was saying that you teach what you need to learn. And, you know, I've heard that before, but I was like, and not to sound like egotistical, but like, I'm good at clothes, like I'm fine with clothes, like, that's something I've always been good at is something I've always enjoyed. Teaching people about clothes comes easily for me. What I need to learn, and what I try to work with my clients on, the part that I am still learning is the listening to your own needs. And so it's not, and that's why I always say it's not just about the clothes. There's so much more that you get into when you start digging deeper, because so many women don't listen to their own needs, about what they want to wear, or what they feel permission to wear, or you know, and they, as I did kind of with going into music, and here's the rules that you follow. And a lot of women feel those rules around their clothes, you know, and they've been told, like, you have this color hair and this color eyes, and you should wear this color and you know, or your body is this shape, so you should wear this type of clothing. And, you know, my work is all about, okay, that's what you've been told, and how do you feel about that? You know, what does your body feel good in? And if it breaks one of those rules, that's okay. Like you get to decide, you get to choose.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, well, that sounds like such a parallel with what you said earlier that you like following the path, and the rules of being a classical musician, and you're helping people break the rules. Yeah, that's so cool!
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, that's interesting. I have not put that together before but yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well, we all get to make our own rules, right, like our own, and we don't have to call them rules, but that make our own, you know, you call them boundaries, or you call them, the setup for your life. But you get to choose, you know, whether there's, what your sonic landscape is like, your sonic environment, you know, what your physical environment is, what you're...you know. Of course, these are all privileges that to be able to choose, but, yeah, it's definitely stuff that we don't think about, I don't think, when we're younger, and seeing what's out there, it's still, it's like, here's the checklist, you know,
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, and thinking like, am I even allowed to do that? Or even, it's not even getting to the thought that you might be allowed to do that. It just like, isn't even in the realm of possibility that you can imagine.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah. 100%. Yeah. And that is similar. Again, a similar thing with with women and clothes. It's like, well, my mom taught me that I always have to wear these two articles of clothing together, and so I hang them on the hanger, because that's what my mom did. And how dare you suggest that I could wear them with different things, you know, that's out of my realm of possibility. So it is, it is interesting. That's kind of part of what I love so much is just bringing up these ideas to people of, well, what if that wasn't the rule? What if there was a way to do it that you could decide?
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, and it takes so much courage and confidence and, you know, building maturity and growing as a person to even have the wherewithal to be like, yeah, I can do whatever I want. And that's a process.
Dacy Gillespie
It's so hard. Yeah. And I work with women all the time, I have a group program that's running right now. And, of women in their 50s, who are like, this is what I want to be wearing, but everyone in my life has expected me to show up a certain way. And if I show up, looking different, they're going to have some opinion about it, and it does, like you just said, it takes so much self trust to go ahead and show up that way anyway, knowing that, you're going to alarm people, and they're going to be like, wait, this is not what I expected of you.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. Has that been a process for you in your life? Like, you said, clothes have always been something that you're drawn to and good at? But like, do you have any examples of that to where you suddenly were like, no, this is how I look now, or, you know, presenting yourself in a different way?
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, definitely. I mean, for me, it goes all the way back to when I was really young. And I kind of mentioned my parents earlier, but they are great, great people who have really cool, radical political ideas. And one of those ideas is that you should not care about how you look at all, you should not spend any time or effort on clothes, or any sort of decoration of your body or your home. And so I always felt very wrong as a little girl who loved clothes. I mean, I just always have, and, you know, it really was like, "That's superficial. That's not what smart people think about." And so that was kind of the first thing for me to overcome was like, Oh, no, actually, I do care about this. And that doesn't mean I'm superficial. It doesn't mean I'm silly. And so kind of as I began to claim that, I started to, as we always do, we kind of swing the pendulum back in the opposite extreme. And so for a time, I got really obsessed with clothes and fashion and kind of going over the top. And just basically, taking some of that musician perfectionist tendencies to be like, I'm going to be the most fashionable, I'm going to be the most well dressed. And then that was its own source of stress. So yeah, and it's just kind of going back and forth. So finally, I think in my 30s, I kind of settled into like, you know what, I love wearing black. And I know Stacy and Clinton on What Not To Wear, say don't wear black, or that's hiding, but like, fuck it, I like wearing black, I feel good. You know, I like to wear big, oversized drapey tops, and it does not show my shape, and that is okay, too. So I don't care if other people think that it's not flattering. So yeah, a lot of those things, and that's kind of the point I had gotten to when I started my business. I was just like, okay, I've figured this out now, I want to help other people do it.
Rebecca Hass
Well, I relate to that idea of having to not care what you look like, like, that was a point of pride for me for a while, like, I don't wear makeup, and I don't care about clothes, and I don't buy all this stuff. And that having confidence meant not caring, but then confidence can also mean, I want to show up feeling the most like myself. And that actually might mean putting some effort into how I look.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, yeah, it's very interesting. I have found that like, there are a lot of people who do feel some shame around wanting to think about that. Like, just to even think about how you would show up, that that is somewhat shameful, and it's interesting. Again, I've been there, I've been there too, but I think it's all a fine balance. For me, that is an aspect of creativity, is like, for me, it's very intentional, I kind of curate images that I'm looking at all the time, that I'm kind of like, this is the vibe that I want. It's not necessarily like, I'm gonna copy all these things, although I do that a lot too, but, really kind of creating a mood or a vibe that I'm kind of going for in any particular time of my life. And then I enjoy taking the time to find the pieces that that will embody that. A lot of people don't enjoy the time that it takes to find that stuff. And that's why they hire me, so...
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, that's why you're there for them. I was, going back to what you said a little bit earlier, that you're wearing drapey tops, and they are quote unquote, unflattering, but, I've seen all your outfit posts. It is flattering because you look like yourself like that. You're projecting this vibe of like, you are comfortable in yourself when you wear that stuff. So I hate that unflattering is such a pervasive idea.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah. Yeah, well, first of all, thank you. That's so kind of you to say.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, yeah, it really comes through.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, I think, yeah, that's definitely my my goal. And I feel that way most of the time. But that is a really, a big kind of message that I want to push back against all the time is that, if you really break it down, and some people don't agree with me, and that's fine, but if you really break it down, when you say that you want something to be flattering, there, there are a few different meanings of the word flattering. But for me, one of the basic meanings of the word flattering is that it makes you appear smaller. In between wearing something that's not flattering, and something that is flattering, it just, the preferred one is that your body looks smaller. To me, I want to push back about the fact that small is always better, you know, and we're having to change that, that is really something that, luckily, I think there's a movement right now where we're questioning that ideal. But then as you said, too, there's another kind of definition of flattering where it is just something that that pleases you, and that makes you feel good. That one I much prefer to aim for, but definitely a lot of people wear things that they don't like, because they've been told that's what makes them look smaller, and that I find is just a really bad reason to choose to wear something, when you could really be wearing something that, like you said, makes you feel more like you and makes you show up as your best self.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, and that's where it all comes together for maybe the people who don't, or how I used to be, that wearing clothes and caring about them is not okay to focus on. But like, that's one of the things that helps you show up as you and as far as I'm concerned, like, if we can all show up as the most us that we are, that's how we make the most impact in the world, so, use the clothes!
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, exactly. And when we do that, that's when we have, when we're not using extra energy, feeling uncomfortable in our clothes or feeling pressured to look a certain way, that is when we have that energy we can use towards making things in the world better. So that's how I definitely think of it, that it's not something that takes away from you doing that work. It's something that makes you feel resourced enough and replenished enough that you can go out and do the other good work that you want to do.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, I love it. And I'm really drawn to people with your perspective who are keeping it real, quote, unquote, because it's like, yeah, it's not just about the clothes, it's about all this other stuff, and there's a lot of deep stuff wrapped up in this.
Dacy Gillespie
There really is, yeah, there's a lot of societal brainwashing all tied in with it. And yeah, it's hard to kind of uncover some of that and what feels good for every person is going to be so different, like what you were just saying about making a little effort and showing up in a way that you want to show up. If you feel like showing up in yoga pants and a T shirt, it feels great to you, great, there's no judgement about that. But it's, you get to decide, and you get to decide if someone else has said, well, you need to do more than that. You get to decide, no, actually, this is how I feel best. So it really goes both ways. It doesn't mean that you have to dress to the nines all the time.
Rebecca Hass
Right. And day to day, you're gonna feel different. The yoga pants and T shirt today might be awesome. And tomorrow, the ball gown might feel awesome.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, we're always changing. So, shifting gears a little bit. Can you share a little bit about your favorite self care practices? The current ones, if that's too hard, a big question.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, I can. I mean, a big one is is listening to my energy and when I need rest, I mean, that is so so so hard for me for all the reasons that we've already talked about, but and also just for the logistical reasons of usually kids to take care of, I can't, but as I, as we start to come out of the pandemic, and I start to get more help with the kids, allowing myself to rest if I'm tired is the biggest self care and it's so hard to not feel guilty about. But that one, you know, for instance, when we're recording this, this is a couple days after a new moon and like I've just felt very low energy probably five or six days, and just not beating myself up about that, and just kind of doing little bits and pieces off my to do list, and not pressuring myself to crank a lot of stuff out. Like that for me right now is self care.
Rebecca Hass
Listeners can't see me, but I'm nodding really, really hard and my head is gonna fall off.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, yeah, it's hard. It's so hard. Yes. So I don't think I actually ever kind of verbalized that in that way, but that is probably the thing that I'm working on the most, that is a form of self care. I've never really kind of called it that before, but it definitely is.
Rebecca Hass
Absolutely. And I know you mentioned that you've taken a class with Mara Glatzel before, and she's been so influential in how I think about rest. Changed everything.
Dacy Gillespie
Definitely. And I love how she talks about just being gentle with yourself, and I love she has this concept of like, here's what like the ideal day would be. And then like, kind of checking in with yourself and saying, like, Well, I'm not at my ideal self today, because the kids didn't sleep or, you know, I need to buy groceries, or whatever real life has going on that day for you, adjusting your expectations based on that is really caring for yourself.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, definitely. And I like that you said adjusting, because I am always talking about how self care needs to change with you. And it doesn't have to be a prescribed idea. And it's great if it changes, because we're always changing.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, yeah, having said that, I also have gotten big into taking walks in nature this year, and I'm not one I would consider, I would not consider myself outdoorsy. I've never been camping, I probably will never go camping. You know, even going to like a nearby park, and just walking through trees and just spending that time. It's been a shift for me to think of it as not for exercise, it's not for fitness, it's not for burning calories, that is for decompressing, and for restoring myself. That's been something big. I mentioned the hotel stays, that's self care. But yeah, all those things are really hard to, when you feel like you have a lot of work to do, it's really hard to say like, well, I'm going to take care of myself and go for a walk instead. So yeah, it's tough.
Rebecca Hass
I feel you on that. So I always ask everyone this, at the end of each episode, what does being a whole person mean to you?
Dacy Gillespie
Well, I just love this. And this is, you know, part of why I wanted to connect with you is because this concept of being a whole person I feel like was what was missing from my music career, it was what is missing for a lot of entrepreneurs. Tthe concept of being a whole person means that that you don't leave parts of yourself out when you're interacting in one of the areas of your life. For instance, like when I'm showing up as a business owner, it doesn't mean that like, the fact that I am a mother or the fact that I am an introvert doesn't play into that in some way. Those are all things that affect how I show up. And I just think it's really important these days, like I've worked in places where you couldn't show up as a whole person, you had to just come to work, focused on work, and not show any sort of weakness, or that anything else was going on in your life that affected how you might be doing your work. I just feel like that's so harmful for all of us, and makes it really hard to just live our whole lives that way, where you're ignoring parts of yourself at different times of day, based on where you are. And so I just really feel like it's important to show up wherever you are as a whole person, you know, and I find that when I do that other people feel permission to do it as well. And so, if I'm having a call with a client, I want to check in with them and see how they're doing. I don't want to just launch right into, here's the work we're doing today, because it's all affected by what's going on in your life, and I think not acknowledging that is really harmful.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, I think you're so right. We do give people permission every time that we do it. And it's so important, not just for ourselves, but we're slowly chipping away at this harmful culture every time we do that.
Dacy Gillespie
Yeah, I love that. Yeah.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. Thanks, that's great. I like that answer a lot. Everyone has a different spin on it. And it's so fun to hear what each person thinks. So I know I said last question, but last last question: What are you excited about right now?
Dacy Gillespie
Okay, well, this is, I feel some shame around this, but I'm gonna tell you anyway, I'm real excited about full time childcare starting this summer. So the reason why that is exciting to me is because it overlaps with my creativity, right? If I have some days where I can actually expand, and not feel rushed and crunched and squished, then I feel more able to be creative. I'm more able to come up with fresh ideas. You know, all those things are enabled by having someone else look after my children for a few hours and there's nothing wrong with that.
Rebecca Hass
Yes, I'm so excited for you that you get to do that, I hope it makes you come alive in a new way that hasn't happened since before the pandemic, perhaps.
Dacy Gillespie
There will also be a lot of napping.
Rebecca Hass
Napping, yeah, that helps you come alive. It's great. I'm on board. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Dacy, this has been an amazing conversation, and I'm so glad you were here today.
Dacy Gillespie
I'm so glad you had me. I really appreciate it. Thanks.
Pianist and composer