S3 E27: Audrey Holst on Transforming Perfectionism and Burnout
In this conversation, I’m joined by Audrey Holst, a coach and yoga instructor who helps people reform their perfectionism and break away from burnout through the Fortitude and Flow Process, which fuses movement and mindfulness to create sustainable action. Perfectionism (and its corresponding unrealistic expectations that we place on ourselves) is something that comes up for so many of us, and I love Audrey’s no-nonsense and compassionate spirit - her motto (and the title of her upcoming book) is “You’re not perfect, and here’s how to deal with that.”
Listen in to hear us, 2 recovering perfectionists, talk about compassionate productivity, what Audrey calls the “perfectionist 2-step” and how this reactionary way of moving through the world holds us back, the first steps in her process of helping people dismantle their perfectionism (simple, but not always easy), her self care, embodiment, and spiritual practices, plus how they’ve evolved lately, and embracing the both/and.
If this episode resonates with you, we’re doing a free workshop together on compassionate productivity, and how it intersects with creativity and perfectionism on Thursday, Feb. 25 at 10am PST.
Sign up details will be ready next week, but you can sign up for my Creative Wellness Letters to make sure you’re in on that!
TOPICS DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE:
Why Instagram is our preferred social media platform
Moving toward simplicity, and how Audrey helps her clients do that, to reduce burnout and overwhelm
Questioning and dialing back our overly high expectations because the “brain tools” aren’t working anymore during a pandemic
Audrey’s original focus on burnout in her coaching work, and how that evolved into focusing on perfectionism
Embracing the non-linear path and planning on things changing
What Audrey calls the “perfectionist 2-step” and how this reactionary way of moving through the world holds us back
The first steps in Audrey’s process of starting to help people dismantle their perfectionism (they’re simple, but not always easy)
The human aversion to things that seem too easy, wanting to do more work in order to control
Untangling laziness from our worth, the need to earn our worth through our actions
What’s changed about how Audrey sees perfectionism manifest in people in the uncomfortable uncertainty of 2020
How we each view and approach productivity in a compassionate way
Reframing the word “messiness”
Embracing the both/and and finding the happy medium between that and constant hustle
Audrey’s self care, embodiment, and spiritual practices and how they’ve evolved lately
RESOURCES DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE:
Mara Glatzel’s Cycle community
MORE FROM AUDREY
Meditation series for perfectionists
MORE FROM REBECCA
Subscribe to Creative Wellness Letters (my biweekly newsletter, full of motivation and encouragement)
Fuel Your Creative Work With Compassionate Productivity workbook
SUBSCRIBE + REVIEW
TRANSCRIPT
Hello, everyone, welcome to Season 3, Episode 27 of Being A Whole Person, and today I'm super excited to share my conversation with Audrey Holst. She is a coach who helps people reform their perfectionism and break away from burnout, and we became internet friends, or I should just say friends, because everything is on the internet now, when we were in Mara Glatzel’s online community Cycle together in 2019. Which, we couldn't remember how long it had been since then, because time doesn't make any sense anymore. So, perfectionism, and having overly high expectations, and being really hard on ourselves is something that comes up a lot with my coaching clients, and has come up for me a lot over the years, personally. So I knew I really wanted to have Audrey come on the show, because she focuses on perfectionism in her coaching work in this very no nonsense, no bullshit, very compassionate way.
This conversation is 2 recovering perfectionists chatting, keeping it real, we laugh a lot. We talked about lots of stuff, like compassionate productivity, questioning our expectations for what we can realistically accomplish during this time, and moving towards simplicity in that. Audrey shares her story of how she originally focused on burnout in her coaching work, and how that evolved into perfectionism as her main focus now, and how she's seeing that play out with clients during 2020.
Since we recorded this in late 2020, she also shares lots of her own supportive self care practices that have been supporting her lately, including wearing onesies for optimal comfort.
And if this episode resonates with you, we're also doing a free workshop together on Thursday, February 25, at 10am, Pacific 1pm Eastern, all about compassionate productivity and how it intersects with creativity and perfectionism. Signup details will be ready next week, but if you want to make sure you're in on that you can sign up for my newsletter, Creative Wellness Letters, and you will for sure be the first to know. So with that, let's get into the interview.
Rebecca Hass
Today we have Audrey Holst on the show. Hi, Audrey.
Audrey Holst
Hey, Rebecca!
Rebecca Hass
Welcome, I'm so glad you're here.
Audrey Holst
I am really excited for this conversation. It's like the one thing I've been looking forward to say, yeah, be honest,
Rebecca Hass
Likewise. So can you just start by telling everyone who you are and what you do and what you're all about?
Audrey Holst
Sure. So, my name is Audrey Holst, and I am the founder of the Fortitude and Flow process, which is a process that I bring people through to help them reform their perfectionism and also break away from burnout. I have a one on one practice. So I work with people through my one on one program called Emerge, and then I also have a group collective care program called Renew that I run on a monthly basis, as well. So those are the two things that I'm most proud of, and most excited for.
Rebecca Hass
Awesome. I love that you have some different ways for people to access what you do.
Audrey Holst
Yeah, it's really it's really important to me. And I play a lot on Instagram, I find that to be an accessible and easy platform for me mentally, and it seems like for the people that I get along with best, I believe, actually, we, well, I think we met each other through through Mara [Glatzel], originally, but I think we've been interacting mostly through through Instagram.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, exactly. We met in Cycle in 2019...last year! Last year feels like a million years ago. I was like, it has to be longer ago than that. Nope.
Audrey Holst
That's hilarious to me.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, I'm with you, Instagram feels like the safest place on the internet right now.
Audrey Holst
Stay off Facebook, stay off of Twitter. It's too dangerous out there. Just stay in the nice world of Instagram where the pictures are pretty, the memes are funny, and the people are nice. And that's where I'm at.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, exactly. Me too. And you can curate your experience, like I have bookmark folders called "kitties" and "colors" and different things that can give me some dopamine, visual dopamine.
Audrey Holst
I love that. Yeah, that's a really good idea.
Rebecca Hass
I highly recommend it. I know people actually who have other accounts just for following pretty stuff, you know, that's different from their business account, so it's just a little too much for me to wrap my head around. So...
Audrey Holst
Yeah, I don't even actually even use my personal account anymore. I basically am just on my business account. My personal account has been, I probably haven't even accessed it for, I don't know, years now. It's just like one account, keep it simple. Keeping things as simple as possible is sort of the name of the game, for me at least.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, I think that's smart. It seems to be the way that people are going more and more, as our bandwidth this year is shrinking with everything that's going on. Have you been seeing that with your clients?
Audrey Holst
Yeah, and it's been the number one action that I've taken with people on the front end. So when people when people come in to work with me, they do an intake to kind of give me an overview. But I also have a conversation with people before we work together, because it's really important that the people that I work with are a really good fit for me, and I'm a really good fit for them, and everything is really well aligned. And so during those conversations, I always have a really good idea of sort of the triage that I need to go through to kind of get people where they need to be just to sort of get their brains back online and get their bodies back online.
Audrey Holst
And one of the main things that, that I've been doing with people in the first call especially is like, okay, these are some of the ways that we gotta cut some things, we've got to move some things. What can we get out of your space and out of your brain and out of your nervous systems, awareness, or what's kind of making it nuts? What's the easiest stuff we can kind of get clear space for? And that makes the hugest difference for people moving forward, because it's a lot of noise. It's a lot of information. It's a lot of input, and people get overwhelmed, and if they don't have the tools or perspective to know how to how to work with that overwhelm, then it's a big, big old mess.
Rebecca Hass
And they tend to have so many expectations for all the things they need to be doing, too, and when you haven't really questioned that it seems like you need to do all those things.
Audrey Holst
Yes, yes,nd that's a huge one. So, people that I work with really well tend to come in with super high expectations. They've been traditionally super high achievers in their life - really, really intellectual, super smart. And especially with everything that's happened this year, it's like all of the brain tools don't really work in this environment. There are so many other resources like I, you know, when I talk to people this year, it's like, anything that I have in my skill set, or in my toolbox, or whatever words you want to use around that. It's like I've thrown everything in the kitchen sink at it, because it really has been a time of bringing it all on board - all the self care practices, all the collective care practices, all of your, you know, spiritual practices, all of the practices, all of the people, call them in. That's been my experience, at least it's been 100% necessary for any sort of normal functioning this year.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, me too, and I'm really excited to delve into all those practices. I'll ask you about that a little later.
Audrey Holst
Totally.
Rebecca Hass
But, so, I know, you focus a lot on perfectionism as a central theme. And I relate, my clients tend to overlap with those characteristics that you just listed, and the high achieving, and the expectations, and the recovering perfectionism. So, I know that a lot of people listening probably will be really excited to hear about all this. How did you end up making that your focus?
Audrey Holst
It's a really good question. So, when I first started digging into my business, and I think thatthis is true of a lot of people, and this is certainly true of my journey. When I first started my practice, I was trying to figure out, okay, who are the people that I like working with? Who works well with me? Again, that really good fit is something that's really important. And so I started to kind of dig into, okay, what are the commonalities, what are the overlaps with the people that I work with, and the first overlap I found was, people were coming to me super burned out. So I started with burnout. That was kind of my entry point in terms of, people that come to me tend to be really burnt out.
Audrey Holst
So I really dug into the research around burnout, and the whys, and the hows, and the, you know, the evaluations and the definitions, and the different causes of it, because burnout is such a huge, huge, definition. It's a huge umbrella, and there are so many different things that contribute to it. So I spent a lot of time in that space. And when I started writing my book, the central focus of that book was burnout. And as I was going through the book, and as I was writing it, I felt like I was sort of taking this stance as an expert on a particular topic. That was like, almost like a researcher, and it wasn't quite right.
Audrey Holst
I was like, I don't want to be the burnout person. Like, that's not really actually what I'm interested in. I'm not, because there are so many things that contribute, like structural stuff, and organizational stuff, and companies, and that wasn't really what I was interested in. I was really interested in the individuals and the sort of interaction that I had with them. So I started to dig into that a little bit more. And with the help of my coach, it was the perfectionism, like, "you're not perfect" kept coming up. It's like, you're not perfect, you're not perfect, and let's talk about how to deal with that.
Audrey Holst
That was sort of the mission statement that came out of all this digging in, it was like, you're not perfect, and let's talk about how to deal with that. And that's when I started to really double down and use the different language around perfectionism, and it really landed for the people that I wanted to work with. And it really landed for the people who were like, "Yes! Yes, that is...", and it started to really call in the right people, the right fits, the right conversations. And so, it was not a straight line, and it's, I mean, it's never a straight line. But I think it's important for people to understand, especially anybody who's in business or in entrepreneurship, that sometimes you think you know the thing. But as you go along the journey, it will probably change. So just be prepared.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, I always think like, I plan on it changing because it's going to - you just don't know how, which is really hard for perfectionists.
Audrey Holst
Totally. Yeah. Yeah, so the the one thing that I really key on is the perfectionist two-step. It's what I call the perfectionist two-step, which is, see it and fix it, see it and nail it, see it and get it right. There's this very quick reactionary way that perfectionists move through the world, and it really does not leave space for that what you just named, right, that exploration, that thing is going to change, that agility, and it's really very difficult, very difficult. I mean, I'll put myself in that category, right? I'm a, I mean, perfectionism is something that is so deeply ingrained, I'll be working with it my entire life, and I've certainly been, you know, been working with it my entire life, but it is something that is so, you know, central to, to a lot of the way I've moved through the world the majority of my life.
Rebecca Hass
Me too. I'm with you. Recovering perfectionist as a label.
Audrey Holst
We're both just like, nodding.
Rebecca Hass
You can't see us right now, but we're like, mmm-hmm. Yeah, and yeah, it's, you're totally right, we'll be working on it our whole lives. But I find that also to be a freeing thing to know, like, we can work on it our whole lives. It's cool. We don't have to fix it, which is kind of meta.
Audrey Holst
Yes, 100%. And I think that that's one of the things too. And this is one of the traps that people tend to get, this weird cycle that perfectionism tends to put people in is like, whatever it is, I gotta get it right, and I gotta fix it, and I gotta address it. And one of the things that I bring people through with the process that I use is, just slow down, and the first thing is just to notice and discern, because sometimes you get to the noticing and the discerning, and you realize, nothing to do here, actually. There's no thing to fix, there's no thing to address, there's no thing to take care of, I just need to be uncomfortable in this moment, and that's quite it. That's it, which is one of those things that really frees up energy for people, which is one of the most important things for people right now - freeing up energy or reclaiming energy and agency.
Rebecca Hass
Yes. Well, and then just knowing that you don't have to do something, could be freeing, too, although my perfectionist brain is like, "But, but I want to do something! I want to control it."
Audrey Holst
Yes, yes. Yes, thank you for naming that. That is one of the things that is really frustrating for people when we first start working together is this sort of, it's this frustration like, well, it's not, it can't be that simple. It's not that simple, right? It should be complicated, I should have to dig around in it, I should have to figure it out, I should have to work at it. There's this embodied sense that we have around things that, I'll put in quotes, "work", and things that don't work. And like, the things that work, are the things that we have to like, effort, and wrestle, and those sort of words that are really intense, action oriented words. So it's a very different orientation, that it actually takes people's brains and bodies and nervous systems some transition time to get used to that as a whole new reality.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, and with work being such an ingrained, capitalist value, it makes total sense that, you know, if something's going to be valuable, you gottawork hard for it, right? And then like, that's so so so ingrained that it feels wrong, if it's easy.
Audrey Holst
Yeah. Yeah, a couple of the words that are really tough for, and it's something that I can recognize - and it seems to be pretty, pretty universal, in terms of the people that I work with - being called weak, is a huge offensive word. If you if you're being called weak, it's like, one of the worst things you can be called. Being called lazy: also, one of the most offensive things you can be called because...
Rebecca Hass
That's one of mine.
Audrey Holst
Yeah, because, 100%, and those are the pain points that, you know, we've been actually trained to react to, because systems do a lot better when we are hustling and when we're not thinking, and we're not questioning and we just put our heads down, and we just do what we're told. So those are two, really, those, it's like, you have to, I have to really watch those. And those tend to be really like rough for people, too, that are working with me, is that laziness piece. It's like, well, if I'm not producing, if I'm not making something, then there's this feeling of like, needing to earn my worth, which is [whew].
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. And that's really come to light this year, as many of us have not been able to work in the same way or don't have a job anymore, you know, the various situations. And then it's like, "Whoa, like, I have to do something right now. Right? Otherwise, who am I? What am I doing?" The questions!
Audrey Holst
Yep. Totally. Yeah, I think it's been a combination, depending on people's resources, and depending on people situations. I feel like some people had some moments of like, they were able to exhale, because there was sort of a mandatory break for everybody in the beginning. And that's not true, I realize that maybe it's not true for everybody. So for some people, that was really a chance to just kind of take a pause. But then there is this like, "Okay, this level of uncertainty is so uncomfortable." And it's innate, right?
Audrey Holst
It's important to, I think to point out because I forget that when I speak about these things, I realizee these are not innate failings in individuals, and I think that some people still feel that way when I talk about this. So I think it's important to just preface, it is not an innate failing to feel like, you know, that you can do it or that you need to be working hard, or that you shouldn't feel that way, because we are literally trained this way. These things are ingrained in us, they are taught to us, and the way that we are built as human beings, we are built to want to belong. We are built to want to fit in. We are built to reach out and collaborate with other people. As well as, these are survival mechanisms that kick in when we aren't able to do those things.
Audrey Holst
So a lot of the stuff that I think people have been reflecting on themselves in a negative way, during this time period, it's like, there's nothing wrong with you, you're actually reacting to this whole situation, in a way that's completely normal for a human being in your situation to react. But I think that again, perfectionists, or people with perfectionism tendencies, I don't even like to use the term perfectionist, because it seems so permanent, you know, they take it on, as if there's something wrong with them. And so it's really important that people understand that, like, anything you've felt this year is normal, and how a human should feel, given the circumstances.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, well, and we tend to think we should get over it more quickly, because we tend to think the whole pandemic situation should be over more quickly. And it's like, well, the back to normal, this is a long process, and we don't know how to deal with it, because it's my first pandemic, you know?
Audrey Holst
Yeah, I remember when I first when this whole thing first started, and I did, my coach did a whole amazing - it's actually where the reasons that I decided to work with her - she did this whole how to basically make sure that your business is addressing what's happening now and what will be happening. And she said something like, and this was maybe back in April, or May of 2020, when things were still pretty fresh, and people didn't really know what's going on.
Audrey Holst
I remember thinking, Oh, we'll be back to work as normal in August. She was like, okay, here's the deal, this pandemic thing is probably going to go on for at least a year or 18 months. And after that, then we're going to have to go through a recovery period, and then which will probably be another year, 18 months. And then after that, then there'll be some sort of like, new sort of like steady ground, for lack of better terminology. And I remember hearing those numbers and being like, okay, sure. And now that we're in where we are in the timeline, I'm like, that is actually completely accurate for what the experience has been, and understanding that this is a long game and how to function and survive and thrive, and find what is going to get us through, this is a long game and not a like, okay, I just need to figure things out the next week.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. Although if all you can figure out is the next week, that's okay, too.
Audrey Holst
Yes, yes. 100%. I mean, it is a week by week, day by day, moment by moment situation, for sure.
Rebecca Hass
And you're not going to fix it in a week.
Audrey Holst
No, not gonna fix it in a week!
Rebecca Hass
When you were talking earlier about the perfectionist two-step, like that you see something and you fix it, it made me think a lot about safety, and how that tendency was great in a lot of situations, like, see a bear, run away. You know, like, from an evolutionary perspective, there's a lot of reasons why we'd want to be perfectionist and why we respond to threats in our environment. But, you know, not everything is a threat. It's your brain overreacting to all that stuff, and that's, that would be for normal times, but now that this year, safety and our perceived safety is so in question, how have you seen perfectionism change during COVID?
Audrey Holst
Yeah, it's a really good question. I think one of the other things that's worth mentioning is that our sort of more modern, our, basically, what some people call our social nervous system, is our sort of more modern, evolved way of of survival, which is actually to connect with each other as safety. And that is one of the things that has been taken away in so many different ways, right? Like, we're not able to be with each other physically the way we would before. We can't just have these random interactions with and that's one of the things that I I heard a lot in the beginning was people were missing random interactions. Like, I miss having that stupid conversation with the barista, or I miss just like randomly bumping into somebody in the grocery store, and like having a friendly conversation and just these little tiny interactions, which seem so little and insignificant in the moment, became really big.
Audrey Holst
And in the beginning, everybody was like, calling everybody they knew and everybody was trying to gather together because people are just trying to figure it out. And then that became really overwhelming for a lot of us who are not wired like that. I'm not one of those people that wants to be with people 24 hours a day and I'm not a super super extroverted individual. So, a lot of that trying to figure out okay, like how, what do I need to be okay, has been a bit of a juggle, and I've seen what's come out and this has actually happened with a lot of with myself and some other entrepreneurs I've talked about, there is a ton of virtual co-working that's come out of this. People who are like, okay, I want to get together with other human beings and literally do nothing but be in a screen together as we do stuff together to feel like I'm not just by myself in this. So there's been a lot of virtual gathering that's happening.
Audrey Holst
And I think people have found their way through that, to figure out what works for them. So that's a piece of it. And the dialing expectations back is something that I have to remind people on a regular basis, like, whatever your expectation was, before the pandemic was too high, and now you have to take whatever that was, dial it back to like, by about 500%, probably, you know, like, whatever your minimum viable piece functioning is like, that is still okay.
Audrey Holst
And I find that to be really difficult, especially when it's like, well, I got to run a business, and I got to pay my bills, and all those things have to happen, which is daily realities. And it's like, okay, and I also have to balance that with global pandemic. So it's been a very big, I think one of the biggest things that I've talked a lot about, and I've thought about it a lot this year is the both/and, like, both of these things are happening. They're both true. They're both happening at the same time. So how do I hold that reality in my body? How do I acknowledge all of my experience, and not just lean heavily on the one that I'm wanting to be drawn to?
Rebecca Hass
I'm just nodding so much.
Audrey Holst
I'm just throwing, I'm throwing a lot of information.
Rebecca Hass
Oh, yeah. It's great. It's great. It's so rich with information. Yeah. Yeah, I felt that safety, perceived safety is so interesting right now, in terms of creativity, too.
Audrey Holst
I'd love to know, yeah. What is your experience been around the creativity? I'm really curious about that.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, well, I did a couple of episodes about this, that people can refer back to, and about kind of just my relationship with creativity this year. And I really like talking about relationships with concepts like that, because we do have a relationship with it. Like, it might sound weird, but I was, I think when I described the episode, I was like, this is couples therapy for your you and your creativity. Not the one about my experience, but the one with tips that came after that.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, our relationship with creativity is not the same this year, necessarily. And I know some people were like, burst of creativity, super excited, especially in that initial period when we were all reaching out to each other. And I kind of felt that way, in some ways, but in others, not at all, like I have barely composed at all this year. Part of that is because I'm almost never home alone, and I really like to be alone when I'm composing. Ideally, I can work around that, but that, and just the lack of bandwidth this year has made it tough. But I know I've been creating a ton in other ways, and I've been trying to remind people that we use our creativity in all kinds of ways. If your creativity at the beginning of the pandemic was being used to figure out what the heck you're doing right now, like, yeah, that's real. And you might have used up your creativity on that for a little bit. That's okay.
Audrey Holst
Totally. Yeah. And I think, you know, there was a really high level of exhaustion in the beginning, and it was a different kind of exhaustion, that what is happening now.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah.
Audrey Holst
I feel like now there's a bit of this, just overall fatigue of like, I'm over this, I'm done with this. I don't want to be doing these things anymore. But in the beginning, I noticed that and I noticed this with a group that I was that I'm running, and we actually bumped our call times earlier, because people were just toast earlier in the day than they ever were. And it was like we couldn't even have conversations at the time that we were supposed to have them because people were fried. They just, their brains were shutting down so early during the day.
Audrey Holst
So I think that that's been another negotiation is like, Okay, what is your realistic bandwidth? What is your realistic brain-width? When do you have time and energy during the day and then being okay, with realizing, wow, I would like to be doing work until whatever time that you think you're going to be doing work. But realistically, your brain may be shutting down three hours earlier than that, and how do you get on board with that reality? And how do you structure your day with that new reality in mind?
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, I've been thinking a ton about that, this year. Since that earlier period, I just didn't really want to be strict with my time, the first month of shelter in place, I was like, I'm processing and I have the luxury of being a little more fluid with my time, so I'm just not going to be as strict about that stuff. But eventually it came to like, Okay, I'm getting a little itchy, like I want to have a little more purpose here, and I started experimenting with time blocking, but I knew I couldn't do it and this like hardcore, no breaks way that I had done it in the past. And it was really interesting to experiment with all that and to think about all those little parameters like, okay, when do I not just when do I work best? But what happens if I am toast at noon? versus at 5pm? Or do I really need a break to lie down and take a nap in the afternoon every day? Probably, you know?
Audrey Holst
Yeah. So this is something I'm curious about on what your answer is. Because I've found because this is a conversation that's been happening all over the place. And I feel like there are kind of, there are a couple a couple of different ways to approach this. And one is a, I have tasks that I want to get done today and I'm going to work from a task position. Other is, like another way of looking at it is, I've blocked out time to do certain things, and like, this is the time that I'm working. I'm curious, like, if you found what works best, if you found one or another, or maybe something completely different that works best for you?
Rebecca Hass
It depends, which is the annoying answer. I do a combination, and let it be highly modular based on mood, energy, where I am in my cycle, whether it's sunny, or not, like there are all these factors that contribute to me having more energy or less energy, and on certain days...well, and what's going on, like if there's a deadline, and I'm like, Okay, this has to get done by Thursday, and that is, that is that. And perhaps I didn't plan ahead enough, I will be more strict about it.
Rebecca Hass
But I kind of have these different hybrid approaches, like you can go hour by hour, you can go morning, as for this afternoon, as for this, sometimes I actually haven't been time blocking at all recently, and I've been doing a to do list that sometimes I'll write in the order that I plan on doing things with the knowledge that, okay, I'm suddenly really tired before lunch, I'm going to switch to this other thing that doesn't have a lot of brainpower needed. I'll kind of classify by that, too. And I also like to make my to do list by the week. So I know there's kind of this pool of stuff that has to get done this week. And then if today I'm like, "Well, I'm not going to be able to like write today and have complex thoughts," I'll just scrap that entirely and do something else from sort of like, the pool for the week. So yeah, a lot of different things.
Audrey Holst
Yeah, I agree with that, that resonates with sort of how I how I roll. And I found that it has been necessary for me to get on board with some sort of general framework, like I have to work in some sort of general framework, I've realized with myself if I give myself too squishy of parameters that I can just sort of drift around. And I'm like, What even what am I even doing, you know, like I just drift around. So there is a certain amount of structure or parameters, or at least, planning, that I found is necessary for me to put in place to keep moving forward on the stuff that's important for me to move forward on. And that's that's taken me a while to sort of figure out too, because I think that anybody who's gone through any sort of a burnout or a being in a position where things were too rigid or too, you know, you're hustling too hard, or you're working too long, any of those sort of things that I think is is kind of part of the entrepreneurial experience, honestly.
Audrey Holst
But I feel like what happens in those situations, it's like, I don't want to do that anymore. And I sort of swung the pendulum too far in the other direction where things were like too loosey goosey. So now it's trying to find that happy medium. Yeah, in the middle, where things are structured to give some space and boundaries to stuff. But it's not so squishy that like literally it's noon, and I'm like, "What am I even doing?"
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, I guess I sort of glossed over that. Because I felt like it was implied in my own brain, I do kind of 9-5ish, not because I feel like I need to 9 to 5, but like, that's when my partner is working, and it's nice if we can have afternoons together. And I know that I work the best in the morning. So I'll get up and take a morning walk. And then if there are creation things that have to happen, that's a really good time for my brain to do that. So yeah, I mean, I have some parameters like that too.
Audrey Holst
Totally.
Rebecca Hass
Because Yeah, I'm like you, if I have nothing, then it's like, "Whoa, what happened?", and I don't like that feeling, because I do like to feel like I'm doing something meaningful with my time, not out of this obligation to be busy. But because like most humans, we want to be actualized enough to feel like we have a purpose.
Audrey Holst
Totally, we want to be helpful. We want to be of service. We want to be serving the people that we're interested in serving and doing the work that we're interested in doing and having some sort of impact with it. So And that only happens if certain things are happening.
Rebecca Hass
So, I really want to know about all those types of practices that you were talking about earlier. self care, embodiment, and spiritual, I think, were the things you listed. I'd love to hear about some of the things you've been trying on and what's been the best and how it's changed.
Audrey Holst
Yeah, so there's definitely been an evolution. So I've had a text thread going with two friends since since March, since things happened in the beginning. We were doing some, we were coordinating workouts together that we would do, like virtual workouts together, and that was really, in the beginning of the pandemic that was super important for me to just have some sort of, okay, we're gonna we're getting together, we're doing this physical movement, even though we couldn't see each other and that was you know, kind of cheering each other on that way.
Audrey Holst
Having some sort of getting outside was super important to me. I mean, even though it's it's cold here now it's it's winter here now, there's snow in the ground. It's really cold. We went snowshoeing last weekend, like we've been trying to get outside. Getting outside seems to be really helpful for me during the the nice weather. I got really into the garden and I've tried to cultivate as many native flowers in our garden as possible. So we had a ton of pollinators and bees and I would get out there every day and just be fascinated by what I would find in there. We had a praying mantis, we had a swallowtail butterfly caterpillar and so I got really into getting to know, and we've got this teeny tiny little, like section of dirt around our house. I mean, it's like not yard you know, like, it's not a yard, it is a little tiny section of dirt. We've done a bunch of, you know, we did a bunch of house projects, it felt like one of the things that that really helped was to do things with my hands, to do something physical and something that that had some sort of a result to it. Whether it was planting flowers or gardening where you could kind of look at it and be like, okay, that's something that is that that I did you know, there was there some sort of satisfaction with that, and that physical doing something with my hands that felt really good.
Audrey Holst
In terms of practices, I have a friend who her name is Abigail Rose Clarke, who created the Somatic Tarot. And I had no connection or even understanding or interest in the Tarot before she started talking about it. and I started to learn more about it. And so I have a fairly regular, I wouldn't say it happens everyday at this point, but fairly regular morning Tarot pull that I'll do, and I will sit, I've got a little altar set up that I will sit and I will do meditation. I've been connecting with my ancestors more this year, I worked with a woman, her name is Deana, well, she was an incredible energy worker that I got a lot of benefit from working with her. Let me see what else, like really throwing the kitchen sink at it. Wearing comfortable clothing is definitely a thing. I'm currently doing this interview in my onesie.
Rebecca Hass
I love it.
Audrey Holst
Yeah, which is actually been something I just put a call out to a group that I'm in to see if people are interested in doing some collaborations in the new year, and I casually mentioned the onesie and like, everybody responded with like, "I'll totally show up in my onesie." So now I'm like, we're gonna have the onesie conversations in 2021, like, that, that is something we are going to do. And I think onesies are part of a recovery process.
Rebecca Hass
I love it. I need to get one, apparently.
Audrey Holst
I mean, it's it's a great piece of clothing. And the other thing that we've done a bunch of is there's this app called Teleparty where you can connect, you can basically log into something like Netflix or Hulu, I think maybe HBO, Disney Plus, I think they all work with it. So you and your friends can all log in with the same link, and then there's like a little chat box that pops up. So you can basically watch a movie together and chat at the same time. So we've been doing that with friends, we've had some movie nights we've done, you know, Great British Baking Show, watching it together. So that's been some ways. During the nicer weather, one of our friends got a outdoor projector and we watched movies project on the side of their house.
Audrey Holst
You know, it's like, all of the things and I mean, I could go on and on, but it really has been, what is needed in this moment. You know, like, what is going to feed me? What is it going to nourish me? What am I in need of, connection with somebody else, am I needed with connection with something, you know, a greater power, you know, it's just been kind of these constant questions and checking in on, like, what is most needed right now?
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, I relate to that, too. It's been all over the place. And, you know, sometimes the social stuff is what I want. And sometimes it isn't. Even though I'm an introvert, it's interesting to see how that has evolved over this time. Not having a lot of alone time, despite my social circle being the people in my house, mostly right now. Like, that's a weird thing. But then all the catch-up calls with people still can tire you out too.
Audrey Holst
You know, what I think is interesting about the catch-up calls is, a lot of the catch-up calls, depending on the person and depending how often we've connected, it's been a lot of intensity. You know, like before the pandemic, when you'd have a catch up call with somebody, it would be pretty, like, "Hey, what's up? What's going on in your world?" It's like, "Oh, I'm working on this. I'm doing this." And I feel like there's almost this, and I don't think it's maybe happening as much as it was in different time periods, but there was this kind of obligated, how much are you suffering right now? And like, "Can we talk about that a little bit, just because we have to clear the air before we can get anything else?" It kind of feels like that's been a normal part of conversation, which gets really hard after a while. And I know, for myself, even, you know, clients came to me this year, and they were going through it, which meant that I needed to get my support systems like on board, you know, I'm grateful that I have the therapist that I have, that has been amazing, that I've been able to meet with virtually and, you know, all of my other support systems. So it's just been, I think that shift in like, what we're talking about, and this sort of intensity around what we've been talking about is also one of those things that can be super draining, and in social contexts.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. And not knowing how to answer the typical, "how are you" at the beginning of the conversation? Because I'm not someone who's just gonna be like, "Fine, whatever," to one of my friends, I always answer that question honestly, and I want my friends to as well and it's like, "Uhhh, fiiiiine?" and then you like, qualify it with a bunch of stuff that's like, "Well, I'm not sick. And I'm not this, this and this bad thing. But I'm really struggling right now."
Audrey Holst
That's real. And that's, I'm glad you brought up that point, because that is happening all over the place - it's the both/and, the simultaneous, I am having a really hard time, but also, I want to acknowledge that I realize that there are other people right now that are probably in a relatively more difficult situation than I am. So it's kind of that acknowledgement of like, having a hard time, really struggling, and also want to acknowledge that there are other people that are struggling in a different way. I mean, it doesn't like negate anything. Obviously, it's not like competitive suffering, but it is kind of that, I just want to make sure that you know, that like, I am not in my own little world here thinking that, you know, not other people are not going through it. So, I totally get that.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. Especially this fall, because I'm in California, and we had such a bad fire season this year. And it was so long, it was so stressful. But then again, I was never in danger of being burnt to a crisp. You know, I didn't know if that would happen, but like, that was a weird thing to be like, "Well, I'm fine. But actually, we can't breathe outside right now."
Audrey Holst
Yeah, yeah, I think there's something almost even more challenging. And I think this probably speaks to the a lot of the experiences some of us have been having, it's like, when you're in it, you're surviving it, right? Like, if you are dealing with the fire directly you are, you're in it, you're surviving it, you're dealing with it moment to moment, you're like in that mode. When you're not in it, but you're on the edges of it, there is this kind of constant, like energy that sort of rolls around in a constant basis, like where you just can't quite relax, right? There's this, there's a little bit of a what if, or like a little bit of vigilance, it's kind of running in the background all the time, and I think that that's really what's happened to a lot of us this year, is this, this constant vigilance, that's just under the surface where we feel like we can't quite let go, we can't quite fully relax, we can't quite fully exhale, which I think is almost, you know, not to say that it's, you know, worse than actually being in a situation. But there's a difference to that sort of level of vigilance versus just dealing with it because you're, you're in it.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. And it's still very stressful, and it might be worse in some ways, because you might not know just how stressful it is. Whereas being in the direct situation is obvious.
Audrey Holst
Yeah, whoa, fires. I even forgot about the fires until you just mentioned them. And I remember seeing pictures of people not being able to even see anything outside and the orange sky that one day that was apocalyptic. Oh, my God. I mean, 2020, really, really, just, yeah, reflecting on all that, man.
Rebecca Hass
It's hard to believe that it all happened and that it was all contained within one year.
Audrey Holst
Yeah, 2021, I'm looking at you and we are not carrying this over. We do not want to carry this over. Yeah, it is something that's notable to mention that, right, these are historic times, like, these are things that are going to make it into history books, and that people are going to talk about, you know, remember, where were you in 2020. Like, I think the fact that we're in it, it's just so hard to really let that in, and this is like, what we've gone through this year is absolutely bonkers, just all of these things. And I think that though the reflections on the responses over time will also be interesting too.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. Because we process as we go, but we can't finish processing, as it is still happening. Yeah, you're totally right.
Audrey Holst
Yeah, for sure.
Rebecca Hass
So on that note, I want to ask you what being a whole person means to you,
Audrey Holst
I think the real summary of that is just really the both/and, like, being a whole person is taking in the both/ands. And it's taking yourself in, with all of you, with your, the things, you're scared of, the things you're excited about, the things that you, you know, put your attention on, the things that sort of occupy your mind in the background, your actions that are really, really wonderful, your actions that you wish you had done differently, things that you want to do better, things that you think. You know, it's just like this whole, we are so interesting and fascinating and complex creatures. And what it means to be a whole person is to be able to just sit in that and embrace it. I talk about people in their operating system, this unique operating system that they have, and it's your ancestry, and it's your nervous system, and it's the experiences you've gone through. And it is the experiences your ancestors have gone through. And it's all of this wrapped all up into one, and being able to get on board with that, and not just like tolerate it, but to actually embrace it. I don't want to say that's like the ultimate, because I'm not trying to make it into like goal chasing, but I feel like that there is something that shifts when you really start to get on board with all of that about yourself and your full humanity.
Rebecca Hass
Like holding all the messiness with compassion. Yeah.
Audrey Holst
All of it. And even the term messiness - I use it also, and I question it sometimes too, because I'm like, know what I mean. It's just like, it is what it is. This is just it. We just call it messy, because it seems different than our perfect perceptions of what stuff should look like.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, I use that lovingly. But yeah, you're right. Yeah, it kind of creates this expectation that like, maybe it shouldn't be messy. But, it sure is! I love that. Thanks for that answer. Yeah. And last question I like to ask everybody is, what are you excited about right now?
Audrey Holst
Oh, I am so excited for my sabbatical. Oh, my gosh, I'm so excited. So every year I take off a chunk of time, usually it's somewhere after the solstice. So we're actually talking right after the winter solstice. So I'm going to be transitioning offline as of tomorrow, and I'm going to be out until like January 11. Really, I'll be doing some stuff in the background. But in terms of outbound work and stuff like that, I am just going to take some time to let 2020 integrate, and sort of, do the thinking work that I haven't been able to do, and do the reading and the luxuriating and all that sort of stuff. So that's why I'm super excited about
Rebecca Hass
That sounds so fabulous. In the words of Alexis from Schitt's Creek, I love that for you.
Audrey Holst
Thank you, received.
Rebecca Hass
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Audrey. This has been an amazing conversation, and I'm so glad you're here.
Audrey Holst
Thanks so much for having me. This is awesome.
Pianist and composer