S3 E41: Karen Cubides on Knowing Yourself, Prioritizing Wellness + Disrupting the Music Industry
I was thrilled to have this conversation with Karen Cubides, a coach, educator, and CEO of the Karen Cubides Agency, which holistically supports musicians of all backgrounds in their careers and also their whole lives. She’s an incredibly passionate person who is always finding new ways to help people and things to explore, and creating new resources for musicians and creatives. KCA’s Emerging Artist program is everything I wish I had had in my early 20s as a young musician.
Tune in to hear us talk about Karen’s experience with burnout (which led her to change almost everything in her life), juggling instead of balancing, finding pleasure in personal development and learning by appreciating the process, trusting your gut in order to figure out your own priorities and wellness, the Enneagram, and approaching personal development from a place of self-love rather than lack.
TOPICS DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE:
Karen’s experience with burnout, anxiety, and severe adrenal fatigue, and how she changed her life afterward
What inspired the creation of her Emerging Artist Program, and the many ways it supports young musicians
Why it’s harmful to venerate genius, talent, and success
What creativity looks like in Karen’s daily life
Emotional intelligence and reframing “negative” feelings and narratives by creating new stories
Juggling instead of balancing and choosing which balls to drop
Why it’s so important to know yourself, continually reflect and reassess, and to trust your gut to figure out your priorities and what personal wellness looks like
The difference between being aware of how to take care of yourself and imperfectly putting it into practice
Hustling for worthiness
The self-knowledge we can gain from the Enneagram
Karen’s essential self care practices, morning and evening routines, and her unique movement meditation practice
Finding pleasure in personal development and learning, coming from a place of abundance rather than lack
RESOURCES MENTIONED
The Road Back to You: An Enneagram Journey to Self-Discovery by Ian Cron and Suzanne Stabile
The Path Between Us: An Enneagram Journey to Healthy Relationships by Suzanne Stabile
Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily and Amelia Nagoski
Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear by Elizabeth Gilbert
Elizabeth Gilbert’s podcast Magic Lessons
Brené Brown’s podcast Unlocking Us
MORE FROM REBECCA
Subscribe to Creative Wellness Letters (my biweekly newsletter, full of motivation and encouragement)
Free Discovery Call - learn more about coaching
Fuel Your Creative Work With Compassionate Productivity workbook
SUBSCRIBE + REVIEW
TRANSCRIPT
Rebecca Hass
Hello, everyone. Welcome to Episode 41 of Being A Whole Person. Before I tell you about today's guest, I have a quick announcement for you, which is that I'm doing another free coworking session, coming up next week on Wednesday, June 30, from 430 to 6pm Pacific. I'm trying an evening time this time, for all of you with day jobs that maybe need an evening time, or perhaps people in other parts of the world than the United States. I've done this twice now, and everyone has gotten a lot done, and felt really good about it.
So first, we spend a couple minutes getting in the right mindset, taking a few breaths, setting intentions for the time, and making sure that you're in the frame of mind to work in a way that works with your energy on that day. We cheer each other on in our intentions, we get to work for a while, and then at the end, we'll have a little mini-party to celebrate our accomplishments with a toast of whatever beverage you have with you, and big old virtual high fives. It's a really fun thing, and I hope you can join me. There's a link to sign up for that in the show notes.
Let me tell you about today's guest. Karen Cubides is the passionate and engaging founder and CEO of the Karen Cubides Agency based in Nashville, Tennessee, and she coaches musicians, both well-established and young emerging professionals, in a really holistic way that lets them look at their entire lives and how things are working, and help them with their business.
So I'm super excited that I finally got to talk to Karen, because I think I've known about her work for several years now at this point, probably through Instagram, and also through her podcast, which is called The Musician's Guide to Being Healthy, Wealthy and Wise. We have a lot in common in how we see things, and being musicians or people with music backgrounds that are focused on wellness. Karen is an incredibly passionate person who's always finding new ways to help people, new things to explore, creating new resources for musicians and creatives, possibly like yourself. Her Emerging Artists program is everything I wish I'd had in my early 20s as a young musician figuring out, "How do I do this whole career thing?"
We talked about her experience with burnout, which led her to change almost everything in her life, finding pleasure in personal development and learning by going deeper and really appreciating the process of it rather than feeling like it's something to fix about yourself, trusting your gut in order to figure out your own priorities and your own wellness. Karen is also getting certified in the enneagram, which is very fascinating to me, and it's something I've wanted to explore more, so it was fun to hear her explain more of what the enneagram is all about. I love any tool that helps me learn more about myself, and perhaps you do too, since you're here listening to this. Like I said, this conversation was a long time in the making, and it was so fun. Karen shared so much wisdom that I'm sure you will love, and I'm so glad that we can share this chat with you. Enjoy.
Rebecca Hass
Today, I'm super excited to welcome Karen Cubides to the show. Hey Karen. Welcome.
Karen Cubides
Thanks, Rebecca. I'm so happy to be here. I feel like it's been a long time coming. And you did an amazing job with my last name, so I appreciate that.
Rebecca Hass
Thank you, thank you. Yeah, I'm I'm so excited that we finally get to talk, and I know that we have a lot of commonality in our backgrounds, and a lot of people will learn some interesting things from your experience. So why don't we just start by you telling everyone who you are, what you do, what you're all about?
Karen Cubides
Yeah. Oh my gosh, I'm so pumped. Okay, so this is such a hard question. I have a podcast, too, and I always ask people this. I'm like, "Ooh, what do I even do?" I do a lot of things. I'm CEO of the Karen Cubides agency, which is one of my companies, where I just get to do amazing things with incredible musicians, educators, and I also work with emerging artists. So my company has a couple of different brands. I'm a business coach, life coach, a podcaster, a wife, a crazy dog mom - I have a portrait of my dogs in the background here - and I just get to work with with creatives, and help them with their branding and marketing, was kind of how things started.
I'm also technically a creative director. So I facilitate photoshoots, video shoots, and just strategy to help creatives authentically brand themselves and share who they are. And I recently launched a second company called Fempire to Inspire. It's similar to my music company, but it's targeted more towards women and those that identify as women, to help support them and just demystify the being in business and having a business process. I'm very passionate about the no bullshit on what is actually real and what is happening and, you know, just empowering and equipping people to really live their best life, so, I'm very blessed.
I'm a saxophonist, by trade, I'm a multi-woodwind person, I went to Boston Conservatory, I have a degree in classical saxophone, so, LOL. But yeah, I love just musicians and helping people and being an entrepreneur.
Rebecca Hass
Awesome. Yeah, you do so many cool things. The intro is always winding, people are like, "Okay, where do I start?" because, yeah, we all do so many things, and your list is even longer than a lot of people's. So how do you balance all of that stuff? I know balance is such a loaded word, because everyone's like, "work life balance," and "finding the perfect balance", as if you achieve it and you get to check the box like, "I'm finished, I did it!"
Karen Cubides
Right. Right.
Rebecca Hass
So however you want to answer that.
Karen Cubides
Totally, totally. So I always say, "I don't balance, I juggle." And one of my mentors talks a lot about just having plates spinning in the air, or balls, and there's different degrees of the balls or the plates. So some are glass or ceramic, some are plastic, paper, all that, and you just kind of decide, and I honestly encourage everybody to just reevaluate your calendar every month. Sometimes it's every week for me, like, "Is this realistic? What are we doing with our lives?" You know, that kind of thing.
But it's really just about priorities, and for me, wellness, just making sure that I'm taking care of myself first, that I fundamentally understand that I am the product. That if I'm not okay, nothing else really matters, that your health is paramount. Then, you know, just kind of trusting my gut and figuring out what the priority is, what I want to actually be doing, just taking it day by day. The whole planning the next 10 years and thinking I'm in control is really not a vibe after you turn 30. You're like, "Yeah, what am I planning? What is life?" So, very much just day by day, and just doing the best I can with what I have.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, I love that you said you reassess and reflect on what is working? What are we doing this week? Because that's real. You know, I don't remember the last time that I felt able to plan a year, let alone a five year plan, a 10 year plan, because things change so much. You have to be able to check in with yourself to say, "How is this working?" My plan might not be working. I might be following the plan to a T and probably have to shift it because such is life, right?
Karen Cubides
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think having a podcast, and you know, as musicians, recording ourselves has really given me that perspective, because even when I tried to batch podcast episodes, and I was actively in my personal development journey, you just change so much - the things you think, how you talk, your priorities, it just shifts so much. I just feel like it's so valuable as creatives to just record ourselves and see. What are you thinking? How do you sound? What is your thought process behind something? That just really allowed me to see that, you know, we're kind of all growing faster than we think, and things are moving a lot faster. Just kind of surrendering that outcome and really checking in with yourself and making sure that you're doing the things you actually want to be doing has been really helpful.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, we can't see our growth until we step back, and it's happening all the time. You're so right about that. I'm glad to hear that you have trouble batching podcast episodes, because I have trouble doing that, too. I feel like sometimes it's like, I have to be kind of passionate in the moment about the thing in order to like present it the right way. If it's an idea I was excited about three weeks ago, like maybe it doesn't have the spark that day. So, you have to do what you have to do, I guess. So how did wellness become such an interest of yours? Do you have experience with burnout? Or how did that happen? A lot of us have to go through something difficult before we pay attention.
Karen Cubides
100%. I really wish that we didn't have to hit rock bottom before we reassessed our life. Yeah, I mean, I've always, it's just such a blessing and a curse to be a coach because you know what to do, you know what to say, you're ready to help and serve, but then to take your own advice, it's like, "No." Yeah, I'm aware of the value of boundaries, and you know, taking care of yourself and you know, good diet, good sleep, you know, all of those things.
But I feel like, so I went to Interlochen for high school, I did two years there, and then, I was very fortunate, and I went to Boston Conservatory, like I said, for my undergrad, I did four years there. Boston's an amazing city, and I had a job my freshman year. I was working as a stagehand, climbing my way up in the nonprofit sector. By age 21, I was running my own orchestra, so I was in charge of a half a million dollar budget, five concerts a year, It was really a high pressure situation and an amazing experience. I had no business doing that. Then I was graduating, finishing my undergrad, and then I got my dream gig at the Boston Symphony.
So I was juggling two jobs, recent grad, like the whole, "What do I do with this career?" type of situation. You know, the whole nine. I just spent the last, I would say, eight years, from 20 to 27, let's say, just hustling for worthiness. The message I got in music school was that you gotta to do more, you're not good enough, just really, not toxic, because Interlochen's amazing, and my education has been, I'm so privileged, but just the system itself. And the messaging that, the narrative that I had in my mind.
You know, Brené Brown talks about, in the absence of data, your mind makes up stories. So the way that our brain processes information is through storytelling. So the story that I was telling myself based on the environment that I was in, is that I had to work harder, that, you know, sleep was for lazy people, and that, you know, I had to wear the hustle badge of honor or I wasn't doing it enough, or whatever. So that was really the messaging of my career so far.
Then launching my own business was another can of worms, and then the rise of social media in 2012, with Instagram. You know, there's just like, you're always behind, and you had that message that so many emerging artists have - you're running out of time, you're not doing enough, you're gonna hit 30 and the world's gonna explode if you haven't done this. Of course, for me, I have amazing parents.
I was always comparing my dad's chapter 20, because he's a successful business owner, to my chapter one, so I was always like, "Oh, I'm behind, my parents are so amazing. By this age, they had a house and two kids, and I'm like, 'What am I doing?'" So there's just like, a lot of hot mess, basically, mentally speaking in that capacity. To answer your question, with all of that set up, honestly, it's been this last year, in February of 2020, I don't know that I've talked about this on my podcast yet.
February of 2020, I was having dinner with one of my designers, because I was going to launch, in July of 2020, the rebrand of my agency. We were having dinner and it was this really fancy experience. I spent a bajillion dollars on my rebrand. It was like the first big thing that I was doing for my business and, or that was like a Hawaii vacation equivalent kind of vibe, and I was so excited to go to this. Long story short, I'm in this restaurant with this person that I love, and I think I'm having a heart attack, and I'm like, "What is happening? Everything."
So I had really bad anxiety and really bad stomach issues. I have been struggling with digestive issues for about three years, and I was just like, "Oh, it's fine. I just probably have a gluten thing or probably lactose, or, you know, insert whatever." I found myself having to leave the restaurant and go outside to get some fresh air. I was sitting in the sidewalk. I was like, "I'm gonna pass out." I called my husband like, "You have to come get me." My friend and you know, person I had hired came like, "Are you okay?" I was like, "I don't know," the manager, I mean, I was so embarrassed. Then I got home, my husband picked me up, I had to leave everything. I came home, I broke out into hives had a full on panic attack.
Then I went to my to my therapist the next day, and I was like, "Am I having a mental breakdown? Is this like a psychiatric thing? Do I need to be committed? Like, what's the vibe?" I love therapy. I feel like the Oprah of therapy. So everybody needs therapy, therapy's amazing. So I was like, "Do I need medication? Do I need extra support? What is happening?" And she was like, "No, I think it's physiological."
So I went, and the medical system has failed me many, many times, I went the holistic route, and got some muscle testing done. I was diagnosed with severe adrenal fatigue. I had a thyroid condition, which explained why I had gained 60 pounds but never really thought about it. I was like, "Oh, maybe I'm just eating poorly. LOL."
And it's been about a year and a half of, if you do not get it together, you're not going to be here. So I changed my diet, I changed the way that I structure my life. I changed my relationship with food, my relationship with time, with my business. It's so ironic that I'm my own boss, but I was a terrible boss to myself. My schedule was so stupid, and just the things that I was doing.
Karen Cubides
People ask me, "If you could tell your younger self something, what would it be, or what would you change?" and I'm like, "Everything." I would give it all up to have my health back and to be a healthy, well rounded individual that would have actually enjoyed my 20s instead of hustling for worthiness. So that was basically my rock bottom. It's been an amazing year. I'm so grateful. Your body does heal itself, if you just remove the interference, which, duh, but also like, wow.
Rebecca Hass
Easier said than done.
Karen Cubides
Totally, totally. So that was really it. At that point, I mean, I knew all the things to do, but I really started to just do more digging. And as a result, I created my Greenroom Community with an amazing friend and former client, Dr. Kate Umble Smucker. We're just facilitating an inclusive environment where people can have the conversation because, it's not even about health or wellness or eating the right thing or size or anything. It's just literally having the conversation, and questioning the source, and being okay with being like, "I hate yoga, because it makes me think of rich, middle aged women wearing Lululemon that is not even size inclusive." But then that's not really what it actually is. So just being able to have that conversation. What is meditation? What is breathwork? You know, all of those things. Long story short, that's what happened.
Rebecca Hass
Wow, there's so much there. You don't know what you don't know, right? Like, when you're steeped in the culture of, everyone's bragging about how little sleep they got and how many classes they're taking, I talk about this all the time, I feel like, but that whole music school culture that makes you think that you are not worthy, unless you're doing every single thing you can every single moment?
Why would you ask the question, "What could I be doing for my health?" You wouldn't, because you think that the most important thing is to keep going, and that anything else is a waste of time. I totally understand why we get to these rock bottom moments before we change things. It's so human, right? Like, yeah, you can tell everyone the advice, and you can know it, but being able to do it is going to be imperfect, right?
Karen Cubides
Absolutely. I feel like I am leading imperfectly, and that's really the only way to do anything, by example. It's been incredible, and also really difficult, but very healing. Yeah, I don't know, I really wish that we had a culture of just more conversations around, you know, you're not alone in feeling this way, and no, you're not running out of time, and yes, you do matter, and you are enough. If we could just approach our careers from a place of enoughness and not lack, I can't even imagine how much happier we would be.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, absolutely, and also just the conversation about mental health. When I started talking about anxiety, like I've known I had anxiety for about 10 years at this point, or a little bit more, but it got really bad about four years ago, for a second time. The first time I was just kind of like, "Whoa, what is even going on? Oh, I have anxiety, like what even is this?" And then the second time, it was like, "No, I'm going to talk about this, like, I'm just gonna mention that to everyone I know, and I don't want there to be a stigma around it." And we chip away at that bit by bit by talking about it. So, this conversation right now, we're helping do that.
Karen Cubides
Yeah, absolutely. And I have also found that the more you take care of yourself, the more money you make, the better you are at your craft, and I would have never in a million years believed that. And yeah, I find that prioritizing my self care, prioritizing my therapy, and you know, for anybody listening that's in school, take advantage of the wellness center at school, because therapy outside of school is so expensive! So prioritizing, you know, the financials there, and just everything, to make sure that you're working well, and you know, you're treating the whole person, which I know is a big value of yours.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, of course, the name of the podcast. Yeah. And it's funny, too, we can learn these lessons, but they might twist around, like, we're like traveling in a spiral, and we're one more layer outward, but we come up against the same lessons again, in a new way. And that's just how it goes.
Karen Cubides
Yeah, I feel like I just keep learning these lessons over and over, and I just I love that they're working though. For anybody out there that's, you know, struggling with just any kind of mental health issue or anything physical, your body is incredible. If you just remove the interference, and ask questions and get help, there's so many resources out there. We're in the era of Google - Google it, ask around, ask to see what people are doing.
I'm just excited for more conversations like this where we can demystify the process, because if you look at my Instagram, everything looks amazing and I'm, you know, very transparent, of course, everywhere, and especially on my podcast, but like, you might just get the impression that everything's always been amazing or been handed, or that you're so behind, or insert whatever. And you just never know. Everybody's truly doing the best they can with what they have, I believe.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, and people aren't usually posting the messy room and the unstyled hair and the whatever. Although I am seeing more and more people, as sort of a backlash to the perfect Instagram, be more real and be like, "Yeah, I'm posting the imperfect thing, because this is real, and I need to show you that." And I really appreciate that. Yeah, for sure. So did you learn about any of this stuff in your schooling? Like, wellness, or even business? And how to take care of your entire career as a musician?
Karen Cubides
Nope, not at all. I think it's so unfortunate. I mean, I'm grateful for my education, again, like musically, it was amazing, and I had excellent teachers. But yeah, I don't think that music curriculum prepares musicians for the real world. I graduated, and I was like, "What are taxes? What is a bio? Technology." And unfortunately, some of the professors teaching career preparedness don't know how to actually get a gig in 2021. Don't know social media, don't know marketing, don't know compelling copy, and also that there aren't just three or four jobs, like, you're not just playing an orchestra, and a military band, you know, being a teacher, there's so many other things to do. So yeah, I just I don't feel like that was fair.
But that's one of the reasons why I built my emerging artists program to make sure that that information is getting out there. It's not so much about, you know, my company and what we're doing, but it's more about the ripple effect. I feel like if we have access to this, to this content, and to this information, we could just share it and disrupt the industry, because that's what I'm after.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. What does that look like when someone's in your emerging artists program? Like, what's the typical experience, if a typical experience is a thing?
Karen Cubides
Yeah. So this has been like, literally my most favorite thing ever. And it's such a passion project. But basically, five years ago, I started really dabbling into the coaching part and recognizing that there's a lot of value in talking about these things, because I think there was so much stigma around like, "Well, I can't have an opinion until I win a job." Or "I can't charge for anything, I have to work for free until X, Y or Z." And it's like, no, it's very similar to corporate America, where it's an entry level position, but they want you to have 20 years of experience. And that doesn't make any sense.
Rebecca Hass
Or the internship, that's unpaid, and you're just expected to do that, because you don't have bills.
Karen Cubides
Exactly.
Rebecca Hass
Rent is free. That's fine.
Karen Cubides
Yeah, for sure. So I decided to create something with the help of the amazing emerging artists that I was working with, to just kind of figure out what was missing in the curriculum and just beta test. So I have like 100 case studies around how and what was missing, and also how there really isn't a one size fits all. So essentially, it's like private lessons for your life.
Clients work with me twice a month, or four times a month, depending on you know, budget, and of course, what they're wanting to do, their personality styles. I'm really big into the enneagram. So certain people need more time to process, other people, you know, etc, etc. Then they're a part of a community. I really like to have monthly masterclasses and just opportunities for for us to do all the things we don't get to do in school, like learn how to literally network, how to actually build a brand, like, what does that even mean? Marketing, social media, and also how to start pursuing endorsements or gigs or just laying the groundwork for, they're passionate about academia.
I, spicy, but don't believe that you need a bajillion degrees to make a difference. So I try and help navigate and figure out, if we're going to get a specialization, is there a strong "why" behind it? What are we doing with this? So it's just kind of like, private lessons for your life. But the program's about a year long, because I have to kick people off the nest, which has been a recent realization.
Rebecca Hass
Spread your wings!
Karen Cubides
I know. And I don't want to, because my average retention is like three years, and I just I love my people. and I was like, I don't want to leave you. But we have to move. So yeah, but that's basically the program, and it'll be our sixth year in September for the program.
Rebecca Hass
Wow. That's really incredible that you have retention for three years, that really speaks so highly of what you do. Wow.
Karen Cubides
Yeah, I love my people.
Rebecca Hass
I wish I had had that when I graduated from college, I was just like, "I don't know what I'm doing." And I took the career orientation class that was just like a talk and a one page paper every week. And I was like, "I don't want to do any of these things." And, you know, I guess I'll just try to find private piano students, and how do you even do that? It was such a, not knowing what I'm doing and sort of being too shy to ask for help. If I could have, I mean, I guess I could have googled things but things were so different. I graduated in 2005, so, the social media piece wasn't really there. But I totally agree, my professors didn't know how to guide us on this stuff, like getting a gig.
Karen Cubides
Yeah, there's so much shame around like asking questions. And it's like, none of this is intuitive. You're not born knowing how to do an Instagram Live, this is a learned skill. And most of these things are learned skills. So yeah, I also would like for that to not be a thing, where we can just admit, "Hey, I don't know this, can you help me?" Just recognizing that there are people out there that have an expertise and will in the end, save you time.
Rebecca Hass
I wish I would have had training in college, too, on public speaking, which I would have HATED at the time, it would have been torture. But now that I've become comfortable with it, this is so much easier to do so many different things in terms of meeting people, or just getting your message out there, or promoting yourself - so many different things. And if I had to talk at a recital at that time, just say one sentence, that was the thing I was really scared about. Not memorizing, not the playing, it was like six words I had to say beforehand.
Karen Cubides
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I don't know, I just, but I also think, too, because I definitely don't want to blame the teachers or just the institution. But we're also not equipping our professors to handle the mental health, to handle what is actually how to make a career in the "real world" post-school, like, they don't have those tools. And they're definitely not getting paid enough to figure that out, either. So it's a lot of disrupting that needs to happen.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, exactly. It's a whole culture that needs changing. It's only natural that we teach what we know, and the way that we were taught. You know, of course, if you're a teacher, you're learning different learning styles, and how to get to different people. But if something's not in your field of knowledge, how would you possibly be teaching that? So yeah, you're totally right. It is cultural, and we're doing it, we're doing it right now. So what does your creativity look like, in terms of your daily life, either in your work or your personal life?
Karen Cubides
Yeah, so I am so grateful that my job is, is really artsy fartsy. And it keeps me on my toes a lot. I have to stay on top of, of course, just marketing and branding in general and accessibility, and just education and, you know, "what the market is doing." I'm currently, almost in the final stages of having my Enneagram certification. I'll be a certified teacher, it's been about a two year process. So, really intense. So, just learning more about humans and how we function and what we need, and honestly, it's been like getting to know myself.
I'm really passionate about morning and nighttime routines. I have a really solid way of unwinding and preparing myself for intentional deep sleep. I love mornings, I'm an early morning person - trained - definitely wasn't a choice. I just love the quiet, I love having time to read and reflect. I'm an avid podcast listener. So just, learning but trying to find pleasure in that personal development, because I think we can really get sucked into, "Oh, buy all the books you've ever read," and "Oh, you're behind," especially because you know, social media is making everything really accessible. You can almost Cliff Note a lot of things and feel like you know what you're talking about.
So, just really deeply appreciating and understanding the process, which is the basis of everything that I do. So that's really how I activate my creativity. I also do it through the work that I get to do with my clients, like with photoshoots, storyboarding a photo shoot, a video shoot, learning the person, and helping them see themselves the way that the rest of us see them. Just finding that authentic voice requires a lot of flexibility and a lot of just emotion. So, I cry a lot, and I have lots of feelings. And it's, it's really, I just feel really lucky that I get to do what I do.
Rebecca Hass
I'm so glad. And yeah, it really shows that you feel lucky and that you are completely passionate, and in it. I think it's so cool that you get to use creativity in so many different ways. I know that comes up for most people who own a business. I've talked to people on the show, even who - Dacy Gillespie was my last interview guest, and she was a orchestral bass player and, you know, went through the whole, degrees, and very much the classical music culture. She said she never thought of herself as creative, which is super interesting, because she wasn't, you know, writing music or whatever. I think it's so hard to define what creativity is, but I think it can take on so many different formats and roles in our lives, and everyone is creative, even if we don't think we are.
Karen Cubides
Absolutely, yeah, I have a book recommendation. If you haven't read Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert...
Rebecca Hass
Yes.
Karen Cubides
Oh my gosh, obsessed.
Rebecca Hass
I just found a copy in a Little Free Library.
Karen Cubides
Perfect.
Rebecca Hass
And I had gotten it from the library a long time ago and was like, "How do I not own a copy of this book, because I reference it all the time?" So the universe gave me a copy last week.
Karen Cubides
That is amazing. Yeah, it literally, I mean, I love reading, and there's so many amazing books out there. But this one really kicked my butt, especially when when she talks about the Muse and how we put so much pressure on the human being, and doing, unfortunately sometimes, to create high art, and just even how disruptive and hurtful and just not good, the whole genius savant vibe is. Where maybe if we thought of our creativity as something that was given to us, some kind of divine intervention, something bigger than ourselves, we wouldn't have that pressure to create at such a high level consistently, by just fear, but it could be more through love.
I really liked her example of the author, Harper Lee, who wrote To Kill a Mockingbird, and how she reached the pinnacle of success, and then never again did anything because she was afraid of failing. And she deprived the world of magic because of her ego. That was just such a great "Get over yourself, Karen" moment when I read that. So yeah, being brave, and just embracing that creativity.
Rebecca Hass
And allowing it and inviting it, versus squeezing it and forcing it, and all those words that we probably wouldn't use, but that's what we're doing. Well, and I think that kind of goes back to the idea of talent. We prize talent so much in, I guess, Western society, probably a lot of different places. But everyone says, "Oh, you're so talented," when you do an art well, and it's like, okay, talent is cool, like talent is great, but if you never use it, if you never practice it, you won't be able to do anything with it. So I think it's important to highlight how we show up and how, I don't want to say "discipline" in a, you know, harsh way, but like a loving nurturing discipline, and practice is what lets all this stuff happen.
Karen Cubides
Yeah, for sure. I really wish that, you know, as a society or industry, we, we would share a little bit more about the behind the scenes and the messy middle. I feel like our audience would appreciate it more, because it wouldn't just be this random thing we could do. But then also, I think we would get closer as a community and recognize that, you know, the success or the platform isn't just for the chosen few, but it's for the people that want that and are actively pursuing that. And it's not, you know, mutually exclusive to talent, like you're alluding to, or, or anything other than, what do you want to do?
Let's wholeheartedly pursue that and not worry so much about the outcome. I think surrendering that outcome makes us actually enjoy the process, because it really is, as cheesy as it is, about the journey. Even when you reach certain goals, or when you have you hit certain milestones, it's about the person you become in that process, not so much having the thing.
Rebecca Hass
Yes. Beautifully said. And I feel like the more reminders of that, that we all get, the better, because we keep needing the reminders we keep around that spiral. Side note, Have you listened to Magic Lessons? Her podcast, too, Elizabeth Gilbert?
Karen Cubides
No, I have not.
Rebecca Hass
Oh, it's so great. Yeah, it's not going on anymore. But there's a good crop of episodes that I'm sure are still up. But basically what she does is she invites people to write in with some kind of creative block, and then she talks to them a little bit. Then she invites an expert in that field to come and talk to them and help them. There's so many gems. It's so so good. I listened to it over a period of I don't even know how long, because I didn't want it to end, I spread it out so long, and I didn't want to binge it because it's just like, little bits of gold. You can't binge it.
Karen Cubides
Well, thank you for this. Yes, that's my new favorite thing, because Brené's podcast is that for me.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, that's good, too.
Karen Cubides
But I could use a little more Elizabeth Gilbert.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, the resource list for this episode is going to be awesome. Yes. This isn't related to what we were just saying but, about the Enneagram, that you're going through this training. That's been on my list for a long time as to figure out what enneagram type I really am, because I've taken the free tests, I've taken different ones and it's been inconclusive, like what number I am, and I want to understand it better.
Karen Cubides
Absolutely. So basically the Enneagram is an ancient typing system that gauges your motivations. So it's a bunch of triads, there's nine different numbers and one of the most common things is, people think that you're typing all of humanity with nine numbers. And it's way more intricate than that. There's wings, there's places you go in growth and stress. Then there's also subtypes, that are based on your instincts. When determining your number, it is a self discovery journey, so only you really know.
That's actually the tradition I'm being trained in, which is the narrative, where, even as an Enneagram coach, I'm not supposed to tell you like, "Oh, you're this number," because, you know, deep down, you're the only person that knows your intrinsic motivations. So if you just go down and strip yourself of your career, of all the other things, and just, what are you actually motivated by, and then also considering there's three centers of intelligence, body, mind, spirit.
So you have body types and the Enneagram numbers, you have heart types, and you have cerebral types, and these are the people that instinctually process their information, either through their body, through their feelings, or through their intellect. So from there, just kind of seeing, and usually, if you're struggling between two numbers, it's because you really don't want to be the number that you are. That's totally okay, because it's a beautiful and horrible thing to just really see yourself in that way. It's really Pandora's box.
But what I love about it is that there's a healthy version of yourself, an average version of yourself, and an unhealthy version of yourself. It's our jobs, our whole life, to remove those masks that we're wearing, that we were conditioned to in our childhood with. It could be good or bad, doesn't matter. Like, it could be trauma, or it could just be the environment you were in that gave you a certain message. Back to you know, we storytell as the way we process information, and kids are fantastic storytellers, but they're not always accurate. So it's figuring out like, what was the story you told yourself?
Karen Cubides
So if we look at, for example, Enneagram ones that are called perfectionist, also the reformer, these are people that can't help but improve things, but their core motivation, or their core messaging as kids is, if you don't do a good job, or if this isn't perfect, then you're not worthy, you're not good. And every number has something like that. So it's more of just gauging, what are your motivations as a person? And what are you striving for? What do you need above all else? And kind of working backwards.
Rebecca Hass
That helps a lot to view it through the lens of motivation, because you read the descriptions, and I was like, "I see myself here." I think I might be a one or at least part one. But yeah, okay, you're inspiring me to go take a test again, because, I want to really get into it, I could go down all the rabbit holes and I look forward to that.
Karen Cubides
Oh my gosh, the Enneagram is so addicting in the best way possible, I would suggest starting off with a book called The Road Back to You by Ian Cron, and Suzanne Stabile. That to me is the Enneagram Bible. It is written from the perspective of two priests because they are two priests, but it's not "religious", you can replace the word God with anything that aligns with your values. But I really like how they talk about just the different types and how they function in the wild. Then there's a second book called The Path Between Us by Suzanne Stabile, and then you could see the numbers work.
So you'll have a basic idea with the first one, and then the second one, you can see, "Oh, here's how this number and this number might miss each other," and then that will help also just kind of clarify certain things. The tests are not really accurate. There's one, but it costs like $120, and doesn't necessarily make sense. But I would recommend just reading about it and figuring out for yourself what your type is.
Rebecca Hass
Cool. That's all really good information, both for me and for everyone who is looking to find more self knowledge tools. I'm all about having all the tools.
Karen Cubides
Yeah. And you know, I would encourage people, too, to figure out what these tools are for. So I'm certified also in emotional intelligence, and just a bunch of other things. And I'm familiar with disc, and Myers, Briggs, and blah, blah, blah. But not all of them are scientifically proven, and they're not all created equally. So for me, the Enneagram is for personal development. To me, I think it's really gonna rock our industry, in that you have language for things.
I'm particularly very passionate about suicide prevention, and awareness, and if I just had the language for how I'm feeling and what I need, it would be a different outcome. I think we're so focused on achievement, and so focused on like, "Oh, these are my strengths." If I'm a business owner, I should have these things.
But the Enneagram focuses on you as a human and you in your totality. It's not about your job, it doesn't even matter like what number you are with the job that you have, like, at all. It's more about, how can we work from a place of enoughness, and then all the other things are more supportive for your business. Of course, emotional intelligence is important, but if you don't know thyself, that's the first thing in EQ, self awareness, so if you don't know thyself, it just makes it difficult to progress and move in different directions.
Rebecca Hass
And anytime that you're kind of reading a description, taking, you know, whatever test and kind of seeing if you really feel like you match up with that. There's a lot of learning there in how you react to the different parts that you're reading. I know people criticize astrology sometimes, and I'm like, I don't really care if it's true, you know, provable true or not, because it allows me to learn about myself. So, you know, we can use any of these to just get a deeper understanding of our feelings and what's going on.
Karen Cubides
Totally. And I'm a huge fan of just also, question the source if something doesn't sit right, research more, question it, you don't have to believe it as truth, but just consider it and have the conversation.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, exactly. So, shifting gears a little bit, we kind of talked about this, you were talking a little bit about your morning routine, but can you share your favorite self care practices right now?
Karen Cubides
Yeah. As I alluded to earlier, I've been very resistant to like guided meditations and movement and things like that until relatively recently, and I think it was because it just felt really fake. And, you know, just personal things that I was, I'm working through, but I find that movement meditation is really helpful for me. So I recently got into long distance walking. I very much enjoy it. I'm a person that really likes silence. So I walk in silence, I work in silence. I do tours in silence, or with a podcast. But it's been really awesome to just move my body and and push myself, not like in a cardio way, but just in a mindset distance way. So I'll very routinely do half marathons or 18 milers, and it's not like achievement driven. It's more of, I get really good ideas, really good thoughts. Obviously not every day, but a couple times a week. So that's been really helpful for self care.
I used to think that self care was you know, massages, and facials, and all that stuff is fine. But as I've learned to, you know, know thyself, like I keep saying, I really need time to reflect. So self care for me looks like journaling sometimes, looks like really addressing my feelings. And in that discovery, I learned that I need to have what I call a problem solving hour in my day, or a "Power Hour", where it's just focus time, because I found myself being easily derailed, and that adding to my stress and anxiety and just slowing my healing process. So I've added an hour in my day where if, you know, shit hits the fan, or if something's off or something irks me, or someone pisses me off, or insert whatever, I can deal with it at that time. So I'm able to compartmentalize my feelings and actually be more present in my day. So having reflection time has been huge.
Sleep is my superpower. So making sure I get good sleep. Power naps, I love power naps. 20 minute power naps are my go to, instead of over-caffeinating. And just really being aware of what I think is pleasurable and fun and joyous. I think we don't activate the play part of our lives at all. Being kids, that childlike wonder, that curiosity, the best way I can describe it is like that feeling when you're playing hide and seek as a kid and you didn't want to get caught, or you did and you screamed, or whatever. That joy, as an adult, just kind of gets washed away by whatever. So just kind of pursuing some of that.
I've been playing Uno a lot, and Scrabble, and board games, and hanging out with the dog. So that's been really self care for me, just figuring out what I need on any given day, any given month, and how I can go do that and really take care of of my inner child.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, we're totally like minded on the description of "Okay, what do you need in this moment?" and, you know, I say this all the time, and you just said it too, that, yeah, baths and spa days, and whatever, like that stuff is great, but if it feels like an obligation that you need to perform self care correctly, you know, that doesn't work. And I'm with you on Team Walk, if I don't have a daily walk, I'm not myself. How long are your long distance walks? I'm curious.
Karen Cubides
So at first we do, my husband, and I do these, so, I don't even know, like four or five, six hours, so we wake up early and do that. But now, since we're, you know, slightly more in shape, and we've been doing it for almost a year now, we're trying to beat our time. So hopefully cutting that back by a little bit, because it is a big commitment. But yeah, it's also been really good to just be outside and breathe and be disconnected, oh my gosh, from my phone and email and everything.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, I used to do like a quick half hour walk because I felt like, "Okay, I need to get back and do all the things." And now it's like much more exploratory like, "Do I want to go this way, r do I want to go that way?" and just seeing where I'm intuitively pulled to go. I also love using the Seek app, which is a plant identifying app, so I just stop whenever I see something cool, and I'm like, "Ooh, what is this?" you know, trying to, I'm gesturing wildly with my imaginary phone in my hands, for people who can't see me. But that's the childlike wonder part of it, like, which way do I want to go? I'm exploring, you know, I've never gone this way before. Here's a park. And I just moved to a new neighborhood, so, it's very exciting. Pick a direction. What is here?
Karen Cubides
Yeah, that's amazing.
Rebecca Hass
And I think we need that so much.
Karen Cubides
Yeah. I love that. That's so so awesome. Yeah, for anybody listening, that's like, "Yeah, I don't want to walk that much." I started off with destination walks. So, similar to you like exploring, but it was more of like, there's a cool coffee shop here, a really cool mural or whatever, let's walk to that. And then it didn't feel like I was counting steps or calories or whatever it was, just moving my body, because that's another thing, your body has brain cells in your gut.
So when you walk into a room, and you feel something, nothing's there, nothing's wrong, but you feel something, and we call it now a vibe, colloquially. It's your body reading the room and telling you information. I find that as we get busy and bogged down and burnt out and overworked and overwhelmed, we don't listen to our body, to our gut, to our stomach, to our emotions and to our brain.
So I find that moving my body and moving that energy throughout my body, it just allows me to be more alert and aware, and I can actually listen. I like to say, I notice a feeling that I'm having, I pause, so I can see it, and then I allow it to happen. And I feel like we think that if you cry, or if there's an emotion, that it's going to last forever, and you're just going to be crying for, like Alice in Wonderland, and you can't stop and it's like, no, really 90 seconds, if you just let your feeling happen. You notice that, you pause, and you allow it to go. It'll flow through you like energy and then be on its way instead of staying and lingering. And, you know, just feeling not great about insert X, Y or Z.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. That's something I've been practicing., not really super intentionally, but just, over time, been allowing to happen more. I think there were years where I did not cry at all, because I was so stoic Midwestern, and stuffed those feelings down, you know, and then it started happening. And now I cry all the time, and it's great. It's funny, because my partner and I talk a lot about how he and I process emotions so so differently. I'm like, I just need to let this through, and he's like, well, I don't want to go to that place, because I don't want to get too negative. I'm like, Well, I'm already here. Let's just let it pass, and then I can start over again.
Karen Cubides
Yeah. And the Enneagram will help so much with that, just have language for how different people process differently, right? My husband's is similar. He's a perfectionist, and he represses his anger. And for me, it manifests, like I'm angry all the time. But it's not anger as an upset, it's passion, its intensity. And, you know, so many emotions, which is so strange and dumb, in my opinion, have all these negative or positive connotations. Feelings are neutral, they're neither good nor bad. So just feel them, be a person and move on.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah. It's like you were saying earlier, the stories that we attach to them, so many stories. And anger and passion, you're totally right, they're just, a little tiny bit removed from each other. They're so related.
Karen Cubides
Yeah. And it's the same as like anxiety and excitement. It manifests physiologically the same way - sweaty palms, shortness of breath. But it's, what is the story you're telling yourself? Of course, there are, of course, medical things, and it is it is a real thing. But on, you know, the generic spectrum, you can process it and feel it very similarly. So it's just also making sure that that narrative, like I've been saying, is accurate for what you're doing.
And for me, it was really helpful with performance anxiety, and when giving lectures and speaking, and you know, we talked about public speaking, as I practiced, and learned through that in my career, just recognizing that I don't have to feel anxious, I could just feel excited about it. And also having language to center and ground myself, like, this isn't about me. I find that performance anxiety for me seeps in when I'm making it about me, when my ego gets in the way, but when I recognize that it's an opportunity, I get to be a vessel, I get to be a part of this. It's not about me anymore. So that also really helps with the feelings, the emotions, anxiety, all that.
Rebecca Hass
Do you also get the anxiety about the anxiety? That's a thing.
Karen Cubides
Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's so funny, being a coach, and being aware of, "Okay, we're getting crazy right now. Why is this happening?" And you're talking to yourself or you're watching yourself, and it's like, "Okay, let's reign it in." It's like, "But I don't want to," so yeah, it's absolutely amazing, and also insane.
Rebecca Hass
Or in the panic attack situation, you're like, "Am I dying? What consequences will result from this?" And then it's like, okay, if you're able to just detach a little bit from the sensations that are happening in your body, maybe it can pass a little more quickly, because you're not like, "Oh, I have to control the situation."
Karen Cubides
Yeah, absolutely. And not to continue plugging the Enneagram, but I really think that knowing your type would help tremendously. Like for me, I lead with an eight, and the message for me is, you can't be vulnerable, vulnerability is weakness, which is, of course, not accurate. I almost feel like if I'm too vulnerable, or if I'm too real, people can't handle it. So that's the narrative.
Even in moments of stress, or anxiety, like, no, we're gonna keep it together. And just as soon as I started disrupting, and pushing against that, which isn't true, just the richness of emotions, and you just feel more alive when you're truly and authentically yourself, instead of pretending to be something you're not, to fit into God knows what.
Rebecca Hass
That is the goal of everything I do, and what I hope I can help other people do - how can we show up better than when we're showing up as our authentic selves? Yeah, it's so beautiful. So that's a perfect segue for me to ask, What does being a whole person mean to you?
Karen Cubides
Yeah, that's a great question. For me, it's someone who's authentically living their truth, and constantly evolving, and evolving into better versions of themselves. For me, it's someone who has solid priorities that are ever changing, but primarily someone whose identity is not wrapped in what they do, but they're more focused on who they are as a person, and not as a human being, not a human doing. The question of legacy is so important to me. For me, as I pursue being a whole person, it's what do I want to leave? I can't take anything with me, no matter how hard I work. We're all going to die, and not like in a more of a Debbie Downer way, but more of like, what impact do I want to have? And what can I create that can supersede me, and that also doesn't always 100% require me?
That, to me, manifests as the ripple effect with my clients and the people I come into contact with. And just all these ideas of, by the time I'm 65, which I don't ever plan on retiring, but let's just say I was, what would I have accomplished, and what would have changed? How would I have felt, and who would I have become in that process? And I find that zooming out in that way just allows me to figure out my North Star, but also not put so much pressure on the delivery, but more the living, because you really never know, life is so short. So just pursuing lasting impact, and making sure that my worth is not tied to my work, but more who I am.
Rebecca Hass
Thank you. That's a beautiful answer. I love hearing everyone's unique twist on it. I don't think it's a Debbie Downer thing to mention death, and use that as, you know, a way to live your life more fully. I often think about that as a litmus test. "If I found out I was dying, would I still want to be doing this thing?" is a really good way to find clarity about something. And yeah, maybe we're not going to quit the thing immediately, because, you know, we don't have a reason to suspect that we have whatever amount of time left, but it really brings clarity to "What are we doing here?" with our limited time that we do have.
Karen Cubides
Absolutely. I feel like people at the end of their lives aren't remembering how many times they woke up at 5am, and, you know, did the 5am Club? It's like, no, they're thinking about who they spent time with, their lives, their families, their loved ones. So yeah, I think as creatives and musicians, just really zooming out and recognizing that our identity is not in what we do, it's in who we are, and just really making sure that that becomes our North Star, because our culture, our society, or industry will really shape that narrative that that's not accurate.
I, having had the privilege of working with people that we would consider to have reached the pinnacle of success, they are not always happy, because once you get the gig, you're at that dream spot, if you're not the person that has become the person that would have those things, you don't enjoy success. That was just devastating to discover that it is possible to reach your goals and not enjoy it. It is possible to be an unhealthy person and reach your goals but you don't get to enjoy them, and that's so shitty.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, we have to be intentional about celebrating when we get to those points. I'm really good at moving the carrot, like, I made it there. "Oh, that's not good enough. That can't possibly be good enough." Then you move it even further.
Rebecca Hass
Why do we do that? Why do we do that to ourselves? We don't have to.
Karen Cubides
I don't know. Also, why do we dress rehearse tragedy, like something good happens, and then it's like, "I must be dying" or there's a mistake or "What bad thing is gonna happen?" It's like no, like, enjoy it. It's a good thing.
Rebecca Hass
Yeah, I like that as a saying, "dress rehearse tragedy." Yes. I'm really good at that. Anxiety makes you really good at that too, actually.
Karen Cubides
Yes, for sure.
Rebecca Hass
Thanks, brain. Thanks a lot. So I know we could talk for hours, probably. But let's wind it down with my last question, which is, what are you excited about right now?
Karen Cubides
Oh, my gosh, so many things. I'm excited for just the world opening back up. I'm so so grateful and just excited to see all all the creatives just really going for it. Like, worst case scenario kind of happened to our industry, and, you know, job security, especially in orchestral land, is just not a thing. I just feel like we're kind of going in an effete mentality, and we're just gonna do the art and the things that we want to do. I'm just excited for that fearlessness, that is gonna come, post-COVID.
Personally, in my business, I'm excited for just branching out. And I don't even know how to articulate this, but I have felt that, in my pursuit of success, I've just negated and repressed things like misogyny, things like racism. I'm a first generation Latina, English is my second language, and I'm in a male dominated field. Not to make it a gender thing, but this last year, in my own personal healing and reckoning, I've just recognized that I have been really grateful for a lot of things, which I'm grateful for, but I also need to ask for what I want, and I need to demand what I deserve. That's just been like a really good reckoning. So I'm excited to set better boundaries and better parameters, and to charge what I'm worth and to do my own thing.
I'm really excited about this workshop for educators that I'm doing at the end of June, helping facilitate social media. We have so many forums, and so many people bitching about, education being crap, and you know, blah, blah, blah, but it's like, what are we doing about it? What are we doing to actually support the people? So I'm excited to just beta test a workshop where I can help professors build their tenure portfolios, how to actually recruit the best student for your program, what is Instagram, what is Facebook, what are these features? There's so much shame around not knowing about it, and it's really a stupid app, but it also is really helpful. It's a free resource. So, just demystifying a lot of that and doing more of that is what I'm really excited for.
Of course, continuing to be an ally, amplifying underrepresented voices, and just really, not worrying so much about how it could affect business or the perception of whatever, because I'm such a social justice person, and I'm such an advocate for everything. I'm so passionate about so many different things that I'm just kind of in the fuck-it mentality and just going for it. I'm really excited for just that new personal renaissance. And yeah, the price of admission will definitely be high, but I'm really looking forward to that next level of freedom and just fully being authentically myself.
Rebecca Hass
Get it! Yeah. I'm excited about that for you, and for all the people that you're going to help with all this stuff, all the amazing things that you do. That's awesome. Thank you. Yeah. So thank you so much for coming today and sharing your experience with everyone. I am super excited that we finally got to meet face to face on, you know, on the internet, but face to face, nonetheless. And thank you so much for being here.
Karen Cubides
Yeah, thank you so much, Rebecca, you're amazing, and I'm so excited for all the work that you're doing. And for even just having the show, it's so much hard work to run a podcast and to do all of the things. It's a lot of work. So I'm just grateful that you're also helping to disrupt the industry with all the amazing content, and just all the interviews and all the work that you do. It's really amazing to see, and I'm so honored to be on your show.
Pianist and composer